Michelle Glogovac (00:01.239) Hi, Nora. I am so excited to chat with you and to discuss your new book, Happy Pub Day, Pub Week, by the way, because although we're recording this early, it is out now. Can you take a moment and introduce yourself to everybody, please? Nora (00:02.647) Hi. Nora (00:11.778) Thank you. Nora (00:18.871) Yeah, my name is Nora Dahlia. My book that just came out is called Pick Up. It's a enemies to lovers contemporary romance and I'm really excited for people to read it. Michelle Glogovac (00:33.313) I devoured it. I had so much fun reading it and I did tear up. Contemporary romance and I was like, this is fun. And then there were parts with her mom that I was like, blubbering on the plane. Whenever I can cry on a plane, that's a good book. Nora (00:43.79) huh. Nora (00:50.356) Yeah, it's so funny, isn't it? When you cry on a plane, like when you're watching a movie and you accidentally have picked like dead poet society or something, and you're weeping next to strangers. Yeah. I'm so glad. I'm so glad. I mean, I'm not glad to make you cry, but I'm glad it impacted you enough to make you laugh and cry. Yeah. Michelle Glogovac (01:00.259) Yes. Michelle Glogovac (01:07.759) It's funny, I only recently realized, and I read a lot of books, but when a book has the power to make you cry, that's really good writing, I feel. And so you should definitely pat yourself on the back because I felt all kinds of emotions with it and I was rooting for them. I was rooting for them. Nora (01:26.422) thank you so much. I'm so glad. Yeah, I mean, me too, as I wrote it, you know. I feel like it's so fun to be able to put yourself in a different world in that way and like escape into these characters and you get like so invested in them. So I'm glad that that comes through. Michelle Glogovac (01:44.279) Can you share a little synopsis of what the book is about without giving spoilers? And then I want to talk about how you got into character, the way you just said that. You can be the character. I'm like, what's your husband think? Nora (01:52.362) You're like, I know, I know. So I actually got the idea for Pick Up while I was standing outside of my kid's elementary school after drop off with a bunch of other parents. And we were actually talking about how there wasn't enough salacious gossip at our school that like our school is very tame, that we keep hearing about other schools like in the area with all these sort of interesting dynamics and we just are like regular. And I don't know, we just got into a conversation about it and suddenly I was like, you know what, you guys, I'm gonna write a rom-com called Pick Up and it's gonna center around school drop off and pick up. And that's what I did. So the book is about two divorced parents who keep interacting in actually sort of negative ways. at you know in and around school and then without giving any spoilers and I don't know how to not even, they end up in a work situation together as well. And it involves a tropical island. And so then it's just sort of the push pull of like, do I have space for this in my life? How do I, can I trust this person after I've had this other relationship that didn't work out? Can I deny the chemistry between us? Michelle Glogovac (03:26.743) There were times where I wanted to just kind of push Sasha and say, can you just go with the guy, okay? He's adorable and we all see it. Nora (03:35.19) Yeah, yeah, I know there is always that, that, you know, cause you have to create barriers, right? You have to create, resistance. Otherwise there are sort of no story, you know, especially in it, like an enemies to lovers kind of situation, which is what I tend to gravitate towards. so yeah, so then it's just a question of finding the balance between making it plausible that she wouldn't just give in. Michelle Glogovac (03:48.129) Right. Nora (04:05.314) you know, versus frustrating the reader. Michelle Glogovac (04:07.959) I was a little frustrated. I'm like, did you just go with him, please? Nora (04:12.974) You're like, we all want it. Michelle Glogovac (04:14.579) Yes. I was like, come on, let's get on with the program, lady. You take us to Turks and Caicos, which I've never been to. Did you get to go? Nora (04:26.478) So I am also a travel writer. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I spent like the first half of my career as just strictly as a freelance journalist in beauty and fashion and travel and like all things lifestyle. So I have really held on to the travel writing because I get to go to amazing places and write about them. And so that Michelle Glogovac (04:31.337) yes, now we get the you part. I love it. Nora (04:56.526) sort of destination was like an amalgamation of a couple different places I've gotten to go to. But one of them was a private island in Turks and Caicos. So it definitely was heavily inspired by that place. Michelle Glogovac (05:13.761) I've been to a private island in the British Virgin Islands. No, it was Necker. I've been to Necker. I definitely felt the whole vibe. It was very accurate. I didn't have a Michael, but I did have a… There were other staff members who it felt like the same way. I was like, yes, this is exactly… Nora (05:17.263) Was it Peter Island? Knacker. you've been to Knacker Island. Nora (05:39.842) Well, it's funny when you're somewhere that is that sort of intimate. There aren't that many people, there's not that much going on and you're there for an extended period. Like you really do get to know like everyone there, the people who work there, the other guests, like all of that stuff. So it's like a unique experience, I think. Michelle Glogovac (05:59.423) Yes. Our little private island though, the island off the island was itty bitty bitty bitty. Like you could swim to… Well, they said not to swim to it, so we paddle boarded to it. But I was like, it felt very similar and there was also champagne on that island too. Nora (06:11.118) What's that? Nora (06:16.686) How come you couldn't swim to it? I wonder what the deal was. Michelle Glogovac (06:19.831) They just thought it was too rough and I think there was already drinks flowing. Yeah, safety first. Nora (06:21.783) Right. Right, they were like, okay, we're trying to keep everyone. Yeah. That sounds amazing though. You had your own little private island on the private island. Michelle Glogovac (06:32.821) And I said that I was like, that's my island. Like, I don't know what you all are doing, but this will be my little island. Yes, please. It was too much fun. I loved it. I love your aspect on, we have to talk about the VAMs. They're very involved moms. I'm totally using it because you know, we all have them at school. Nora (06:37.848) This is my island. Yeah, just incredible. Nora (06:48.791) yes, Nora (06:56.684) And we're like, how, how? Yeah. I think it was in part a reaction to the fact that as a freelancer, I've always been sort of caught in this weird place between like stay at home moms who are more available to do those sort of school related activities and the women who are working. Michelle Glogovac (07:00.032) Yes. Nora (07:24.504) full-time and who, or parents who are working full-time who really can't make it to those kind of things. I always felt like my schedule sort of was flexible enough to do it, but of course, if you're freelance, if you're not working, nobody's working. So it's kind of a tricky thing. So I think because of that experience, I would sort of watch these other moms who seemed like they had it like all together all the time. And I was like, how, how, how are all the... all of the sweets organic, are you doing this? I'd be like, sure, I'll bring something to the bake sale and I'd buy it at this crappy supermarket and they'd be there with their apple juice instead of sugar, whatever it was, homemade baked goods. So that's sort of the idea for where the VIMs came in. Yeah, and also. Michelle Glogovac (08:20.427) love the acronym. I'm totally using it. You should trademark it. Nora (08:22.702) Maybe I'll make t-shirts like V.I.M. Yes. Like very, instead of very involved moms, it's like very disengaged moms. VD. Good. Michelle Glogovac (08:27.144) I love it. And then ones that say not V.I.M.s. VAMs at home. Michelle Glogovac (08:43.283) my God, that would be hilarious. You should get these printed before the book launches. Nora (08:47.276) Yeah, we're gonna get all right. We're gonna get right after this. I'm gonna get on a call. Michelle Glogovac (08:51.639) I love it. my gosh, that's hilarious. So what has been the reaction to the parents at school? Have they read it? Nora (09:00.598) No, I'm actually like so nervous about it because I have to tell you, Michelle, like this, I wrote this book. tend to, I always joke with my husband that I have no imagination. Like I write about places I've been to or places I live or like my characters, I mean, my characters are really amalgamations of like many, many people. They're not like one person, but the settings and all of that kind of. Michelle Glogovac (09:23.489) Mm-hmm. Nora (09:27.852) stuff, like the jobs, they're all things that like I've done or someone close to me has done or I've experienced myself. So I wrote this book, not realizing because it's my my first romance, that I was going to need to like, add real sex to it. Like I sort of was like, I tried to write it with like that closed door thing where like they kiss and then the door closes kind of thing. And then I it became clear to me that that was not going to be a possibility. So I had to like spice it up. And then I was like, my God, I feel like I've written this book that's like about my neighborhood and like it has like kids, like my kids ages. And I'm like, it's my supermarket and my running loop and Prospect Park where everything takes place. And now it's like, you know, a little raunchy. Michelle Glogovac (10:20.247) And the quote that stands out is, I will never look at the side table the same way again. Nora (10:26.702) Exactly. Well, you were like. Michelle Glogovac (10:29.331) I read the whole book and that part was on the plane and I'm like, hope the mom, there was a mom next to me with her two year old and I'm like, she's falling asleep. She's missing out over here. You might want to read over my shoulder. Nora (10:38.628) You're lying. Yeah, check this out. Yeah, so I have one friend at school, parent, like mom friend at school who has read it, actually two, and they're both romance readers. One of them is like a romanticist person and the other one reads more like contemporary romance like this. And they both were like, it's not as crazy as you think. It's not like, you know, like they almost were like, you could spice it up more. So. Michelle Glogovac (11:11.851) That always makes you wonder though, if they're listening, what are you all doing at home? Nora (11:11.867) So we'll see. Nora (11:16.33) No, exactly. Exactly. So, yeah, so I am like a little bit nervous, but hopefully, I mean, I guess I as my mother would say I should be so lucky as to have that problem because that would mean everyone read it. Michelle Glogovac (11:29.749) Right. Well, they better all read it. There should be like a PTA book club or a VIM book club. Yeah. Yeah. All the VIMs need to get together, read this book. Nora (11:34.403) I am book club, yeah. Nora (11:40.43) And maybe have a support group because it also deals with like the stresses of motherhood in that way. Michelle Glogovac (11:47.135) love it. I love it. Michelle Glogovac (11:51.445) Yes, yes. I don't spoil, so don't think this is spoiling, but the recognition of just being called mom at school and then the realization later on of other staff members too. I love the way it comes about towards the end of what everybody recognizes. I'll put it that way. That doesn't spoil it. But it kind of touches on the, you know, we want to be recognized as something more than mom. And I think that often gets overlooked. Nora (12:19.991) No. Nora (12:25.955) Yeah. Nora (12:30.016) Yeah, you know, it's so funny, like, I feel like at some point during, like, I lost a friend like a few years ago and during the grieving process for that, like in the frustration of like the competitive grieving between all of like the friends and whatever, somebody said to me, everybody just wants to be seen. Like everybody just wants to feel seen. And that stayed with me so much, like for everything. And it just like applies across the board so much, you And that's such a funny thing, isn't it? That like, that they just call you mom, that they're like, hey mom, you know? And at first maybe you're like, that's cute. And then you're like, but do you actually know the difference between me and like that person? know, do we have an identity beyond like being a snack dispenser over here? You know, because I used to. And I think that's really like what the root of the. Michelle Glogovac (13:07.34) Mm-hmm. Michelle Glogovac (13:22.593) Yeah. Michelle Glogovac (13:30.39) Right. Nora (13:32.696) book is about, you know, like, like, once upon a time, we all had identities that had nothing to do with having kids or being moms, you know, and maybe we were like, wild, or maybe we weren't, you know, or whatever we were doing, like we were doing it, you know, as ourselves and not with like, various appendages, you know. Michelle Glogovac (13:45.889) Mm-hmm. Michelle Glogovac (14:00.759) Mm-hmm. Nora (14:02.104) And then we become moms and our identity shifts so extremely. And then as our kids get older, it starts, the question starts to arise like, how do we, where do we, how do we settle back into something that's more about like us and who we are and who are we the same person still? And like, we be, you know? Michelle Glogovac (14:22.379) Yeah. You touch on so many different things. We talk about romance and all of the spiciness, but you do touch on these things. I just interviewed yesterday Stephanie Harrison on New Happy, and she says everybody wants to be happy. And if we all look at it from that perspective of you just want to be happy, what can we do to help each other be happy? We can listen and whatnot. And then I also, the way you portray these Nora (14:34.539) huh. Michelle Glogovac (14:52.063) husbands, the dads, the ex-husbands, it's like Eve Ronsky in Fair Play. Who's doing what at home and at what point does that recognition then fall on the dad to go, yeah, I should be doing something else and picking up and doing more and does it happen when it's too late in a marriage? It doesn't happen at all. Nora (15:12.078) Right, right, right. Yeah, and it's an interesting question, because also like, I guess in the little Brooklyn bubble, where I live, are like dads that are like more like the stay at home moms, know, who don't work while their wives have sort of big corporate jobs. And it's not every couple, but it's more common than probably in a lot of other places. So then that like sort of suggests all of these different or raises all these different questions about identity too and like gender roles and all that stuff. But I do think that everybody just wants to be happy is a good point. And that is actually what motivated me to write a romance because I was like in COVID, I basically couldn't read any, I was like, I can't read all of sudden. I know a lot of our reading habits shifted during COVID. I think that happened for me. It's exactly everything. And I just could not read. And then I have a really dear friend who is a very successful romance novelist. Sarah MacLean is her name. And I started reading her books and then I was like, I can only read her books. for six months, I just like lost myself in all of her books, which are like historical romance. Michelle Glogovac (16:11.017) All habits, all habits. Yeah. Nora (16:40.01) often with like a girl gang. like, it's just, it's cool. And it's just, was like fun and escapist and all of these things. So then when I thought about writing this book, I was like, I just, everyone just wants to escape. Like, I just want to escape too. Like, why don't I just, you know, create something that does that job, you know, that gives us a place to like, sink into like a happy place, you know? Michelle Glogovac (16:55.705) Mm-hmm. Michelle Glogovac (17:09.192) Yeah, and that's probably why I devoured it because I felt like I was escaping somewhere else, even though I actually was and I was flying across the country. But it definitely provided that escape and the different characters all have these different situations going on at home. So you could put yourself in each one a little bit, regardless of whether you're married, you're separated, you're divorced. Nora (17:14.349) huh. Nora (17:19.287) Right. Michelle Glogovac (17:36.033) there was a part of, I felt like me in each character. Nora (17:40.386) Yeah, I'm so glad to hear that. Yeah. I mean, I guess that's probably true for me too in writing them, right? Like how else do you actually get to the depth of what makes a person tick, you know? If not because you understand a portion of it, you know, or you relate to some part of it, you know? So I'm so glad that that resonated for you in that way. Like that makes me feel like I at least kind of did my job. Michelle Glogovac (18:01.655) Yeah. Michelle Glogovac (18:08.643) you did. You made me cry too. There was some blushing, there was some crying, it was good. Nora (18:12.942) What more can you ask for? No, I'm so glad that that was the case. And yeah, I mean, the world is an intense place right now. Yeah. So it feels like anytime you can just kind of like, you know, take a minute, it's sort of, it's self care, I think, you know? Michelle Glogovac (18:25.02) Just a bit. Yeah. Yeah. Michelle Glogovac (18:39.093) Yeah, and there was also a part in the book that I would say controversial, I guess would be the word I would use in which you're waiting as the reader to see who's going to stand up against this one character, will they stand up, and readers have to go read it, but you hit on it and I was so happy. Nora (19:02.894) Yeah. Michelle Glogovac (19:09.059) No spoilers, everybody. But I really enjoyed that that approach was included as well. I think that for being a book that's supposed to be romantic and fun, you hit on heavy topics without making them feel hugely heavy and burdensome for the reader. Nora (19:29.042) good. So yeah, I mean, I guess that's the balance I was trying to strike. I mean, my sister, like read it. My sister's always like the first person to read my drafts, basically. and she, she's my big sister, you know? so I need her approval, but she, but she read it and she was like, well, you pulled a Nora. Meaning that like, I said I was going to write something light and like a romance. And then I threw in all of this like, gender politics and whatever else. And I was like, can't help myself. Michelle Glogovac (20:00.404) Yeah. Michelle Glogovac (20:05.879) I was like, yeah, because I think it also makes you think. Here we are, we're escaping, we're having fun, and then you're like, don't forget that real life is still here. Nora (20:15.31) Well, actually like, and I think that those kind of details also make it feel more real and like relatable. also I was at a romance event not that long ago. And like, since I started writing this, I started and reading more romance, I started going to events which are like so fun. Cause everybody's just like in a place of wanting to like be happy and laugh and you know, like drink wine and whatever. It's just like a very nice thing. Michelle Glogovac (20:21.568) Mm-hmm. Nora (20:45.384) but one of the things that they talked about, which I thought was fascinating is because, is that because romance novels come out more quickly than other books, you know, other, like publishers take longer to put out like literary fiction or whatever it would be. But, you know, most romance novelists write a book a year. and the readership is like very, very voracious because of that. Romance is able to reflect the contemporary culture, like the current culture in a way that other books can't because the other books are just longer lead. So the culture has shifted or changed over that time. That was like so fascinating to me. And I really loved the idea of that, especially because I've always been interested in like sort of adding like cultural cues and whatever to what I write. I thought that was such an interesting like revelation. Michelle Glogovac (21:30.988) Yeah. Michelle Glogovac (21:40.182) Mm-hmm. Michelle Glogovac (21:44.063) That is fascinating. I didn't realize that and so now I'm going to have to read more. Nora (21:51.02) I know, well a lot of the, and it's really interesting too, like a lot of the romance novelists really think of themselves as like political in certain ways, you know? Michelle Glogovac (21:59.233) Well, and books, this is because of the time that we're in, books are political. And I've seen posts where people are like, books aren't political. And right now we should all read books and be happy. Well, no, books are being banned. Books are very political. Books can teach lessons without throwing it in your face and being present to make you think without so many people don't experience or recognize certain things. And yet a book can allow you to be in that place. Nora (22:12.75) but surfing, yeah. Michelle Glogovac (22:28.523) to have that experience, open your eyes to other things. Yeah, they're very political. So I agree. Nora (22:33.752) Literally. Yeah, to put yourself, yeah, and that's such a good point, in the position of a person who's like life you might not otherwise ever understand. Yeah. Michelle Glogovac (22:44.927) Right. And I feel that way with podcasts. We get to talk to other people who have these experiences that we wouldn't otherwise get to hear. But also to read it in a book is also a different experience where I think that maybe the empathetic part, it won't be as strong because you don't hear it in that person's own words, but it still allows you to recognize what is actually happening to other people. Nora (22:53.346) Yeah. Michelle Glogovac (23:13.873) what they've experienced. Nora (23:15.364) Yeah, in between make out sessions. Michelle Glogovac (23:18.303) Yes. And so that way you can be like, I'm thinking, okay, I can stop thinking for a minute. Nora (23:23.882) Yeah, I'll take a break. I'll take a break. Michelle Glogovac (23:27.307) I love it. Take me back to the freelance stuff. What were you doing before you wrote this amazing book that is now out? Because I know there's other books too. Nora (23:36.678) yes. So, well, so I was a freelance journalist for many years, as I said. and then, and I did like also as many freelance journalists do like a lot of like brand work with different fashion and beauty lines and whatever. and then I decided I wanted to try to write a novel. and so I did. and I had really never written fiction. I mean, even as a kid, when I was like, editor of my literary magazine or whatever. always wrote personal essay and like creative nonfiction, like humor essays basically. But I was like, I just need to try to do something different than all of the sort of newspaper and magazine stuff I was doing. actually this is gonna come full circle because I had the idea for my first novel while I was on Peter Island in the British Virgin Islands. Michelle Glogovac (24:33.431) I love it. We all go back to the BBI. Nora (24:37.102) Yeah, exactly. But anyway, that started me writing more like a market commercial fiction, like sometimes referred to as women's fiction. And so I wrote a few different books, like I wrote three books in that genre. And Then, then I started also book coaching and ghost writing and collaborating on books. And I co-wrote a nonfiction book about this sort of seminal, sort of an odd word, but sexual assault that sort of at the sort of beginning of when social media became like a prominent thing in our culture and sort of the interplay between those. those two pieces. And so I did that. And then I was like, I'm going to need to lighten it up. So then I sat down to write this, which I'm writing under the name Nora Dahlia, which is like my romance writing name. Michelle Glogovac (25:39.285) Yeah Michelle Glogovac (25:50.305) love it. And then are you working on another one now? Now that this baby's born, is the next one coming? Nora (25:54.824) It is because it's romance. And so that's the great thing is, yeah, I'm working on another one now, which is also an enemies to lovers and sort of has a similar vibe where it's hopefully like funny, but also like poignant when hopes. Yeah. Michelle Glogovac (26:15.511) Are you gonna do one a year? Is that your hope now, now that you've pushed one out? Nora (26:19.307) I would, if they let me, I absolutely will. I would love to just keep doing it. It's like the most fun. It's the best. Michelle Glogovac (26:27.009) And how do you find that now you are a mom, for all who have not caught on yet, she is a mom. How do you find the time to, I mean, one year I've had guests on who have said, I've taken two decades, I've taken five years, I've taken all of this time. How do you fit in writing a full novel in a year and pushing this out? Nora (26:48.326) Yeah, I mean, I'm lucky to be a pretty fast writer. And maybe that's just from also like honed after years of just writing every day, basically. I also write from a place of anxiety. So I'm just really fast, maybe because I'm just trying to get a draft out. I find it like much less stressful to have a draft, even if it's really messy, than to be starting from scratch. I wrote I Up actually after I was sort of joking, but I guess I'm sort of not joking. I wrote Pick Up after a period of not writing fiction for kind of a while. And I at that time was collaborating on and ghostwriting for different books. But in addition to that assault book, a book, a memoir about the Holocaust, a couple other like really intense topics. And at that time, I found it really difficult to focus on fiction, my own fiction stuff. And so I basically like suddenly finished up all of these projects and I had like a gap in time. And I was, it was like, because, because also that's when I had the idea for Pick Up. was just like, it was like the right time. And so I just like intensely sat down and wrote like the whole book in, in like a couple months. Michelle Glogovac (27:52.726) Mm-hmm. Nora (28:14.75) which is what I sort of tend to do. And then I have to, I mean, then it's a mess and I have to rewrite it 850 times, but you know, so yeah, so that, that was how I wrote Pick Up. And then the second one, I wrote this summer in a similar kind of flurry. Michelle Glogovac (28:17.271) That's amazing. Michelle Glogovac (28:34.659) I need those flurries. Because I will do a flurry and I'll be like, my gosh, I did 2000 words in a day. And then I go, okay, now I haven't written in a month. Nora (28:44.11) Right. It's really hard. Well, actually, I wrote my very first book I wrote during National Novel Writing Month. Have you ever? Yeah. Yes. And so, yeah. And so for anyone who doesn't know, it's basically the idea is that you're meant to write, I think it's like 1677 or something like that. Michelle Glogovac (28:50.934) yeah, right, NaNoWriMo? Yes, this month, that's November, although this airs in December. Yes, November. Nora (29:11.776) words a day for a month and then by the end of the month and you're not meant to like outline or edit or stop and at the end of the month you have like a very messy draft in an ideal world. It's a sort of short book but so maybe you don't but anyway. That's how I wrote my first book and I found that to be like a really helpful structure for me because I didn't necessarily write like 1700 words a day, but I made myself write every day, even if it was like a sentence. And what I find is just that like, the more time you spend away from whatever the project is, the scarier it gets to re-approach. So that Michelle Glogovac (29:45.623) Mm. Michelle Glogovac (29:56.289) Sure, yeah. Nora (29:59.596) That didn't allow me to stop. didn't allow me to get to that point that everyone gets to in whatever book they're working on where they're like, this was a terrible idea. Everything I'm doing sucks. Like, why am I even doing this? I'm just going to scrap it. You know, you're not allowed to do that. Also, they have like a website you can sign up on and it gives you like a graph. So you're actually like, also you get to, you get to watch the graph grow. So for whatever reason that really works for me. So even when it's not November and I'm writing a book, I sort of write in that way. And I got lucky with this, not pick up, but this new one, this next one, because it turned out, and it felt like fate, that they do, now they do a NaNoWriMo camp in July. Michelle Glogovac (30:31.831) Mm-hmm. Michelle Glogovac (30:47.743) Yes. Well, and anyone who's a parent did not invent NaNoWriMo November because November we just talked about, there's parent-teacher conferences and there's half days for a week and there's Veterans Day and then there's Thanksgiving. Like who's writing when the kids are home nonstop? Nora (31:03.662) That's such a good point. That's such a good point. Yes. November is the nightmare. I know. It really should be like, except it's short. It should be like February, but I don't know. Michelle Glogovac (31:15.253) Yeah, yeah, although there's now like ski week and you know, they're just creating these weeks off. So. Nora (31:18.606) Yeah, no, I don't know. But yeah, the July was kind of brilliant because I was in for a big portion of the month. I was in at my in-law's house in Maryland. My kids were in camp and I could sit in the little office there and I could just work and everybody let me. So that was nice. Michelle Glogovac (31:40.971) That sounds nice. One last question. What's your husband say about the fun scenes? Nora (31:48.406) Well, first of all, he read like an earlier draft and he was like, he called me on like the fact that I was doing the closed door kind of thing. Like he was like, but you're doing all this lead up and then like, you don't get to ever see the sex. Like what is it? So he was supportive in that regard. My husband is, he's a writer. He's actually a graphic novelist and he writes, Michelle Glogovac (32:02.676) Hahaha Nora (32:16.46) actually YA and children's graphic novels, but he is also a filmmaker. And so when I told my editor that the first time that we met actually, she said to me, so how does he feel about the fact that you made the ex-husband like a filmmaker? And I was like, I did. And even think about it, just as I said, I always just draw on whatever career I actually don't have to do any research on because I already know exactly what it entails. So I came home and I told him that she had said that and he said, and I said that she had said, does he mind? And he said, well, I actually kind of minded a little bit. And he said, and I was like, well, why didn't you say anything? And he said, Michelle Glogovac (32:51.83) Yeah. Nora (33:11.542) Because I think the book is really good and I didn't want you to mess it up because that. So that was, yeah, that was... Yeah, yeah, I was like, I know, but he's definitely not a cliff. He's an ancient. He's definitely an Yeah, yeah, exactly. Precisely. Michelle Glogovac (33:15.534) that's sweet. That's pretty funny though. Your poor husband. Michelle Glogovac (33:26.559) No, I was just going to say he's not Cliff. No way. No, no. Cliff's a… Cliff's a douchebag. Michelle Glogovac (33:36.675) you, I adore you. my goodness. You're going to have to come back for your next book too, because I'm going to devour all of them from here on out. Nora (33:41.006) I would love that. Nora (33:45.537) thank you. This is so was so fun. It was so fun to talk to you. Like I could just talk to you forever. So Michelle Glogovac (33:51.255) Me too, thank you. Where can everybody find you and where can they buy a pickup? Nora (33:55.896) Okay, well you can buy pickup at all the stores. think, mean not all the stores, but like the standard stores and hopefully lots of Indies as well. And you can find me on Instagram under Nora Dahlia Zelavansky, which is my full name. And also on my website, which is the same, Nora Dahlia Zelavansky. If you can figure out how to spell it. Michelle Glogovac (34:23.241) Amazing. I'll put it in the show notes. So you don't have to spell it everybody. Thank you. Nora (34:27.76) Yeah, definitely. I just want to say it's such a good like escapist read for the holidays. So if you have like a vacation coming up or someone you want to give a book for a vacation, I recommend. That's my thing. Michelle Glogovac (34:39.785) Yes, because it's going to be cold and it will take you to warm places and you can literally finish it between your flights and a hotel room. Promise. Thank you so much and congratulations, Nora. Nora (34:43.63) That's it. Nora (34:47.584) Yes, yes. Nora (34:53.346) Thank you so much, and this was so fun.