Michelle Glogovac (00:01.264)
Hi Courtney.

Courtney Lund O'Neil (00:03.448)
Hi Michelle, thanks for having me today.

Michelle Glogovac (00:05.726)
I am so excited to get to talk to you. I feel you're probably my first true crime type of person I'm getting to talk to. So I am really excited about this. Can you introduce yourself to everyone, please?

Courtney Lund O'Neil (00:21.024)
Yes. Hi everybody. My name is Courtney Lynn O'Neill and I am the author of Postmortem, What Survives the John Wayne Gacy Murders right here. And I hope you read it and buy it and love it. And I've been a writer for a long time. I've written in places like the New York Times, Washington Post, Chicago Tribune, Harper's Bazaar. I'm also an educator. So I love to teach writing. And so I'm also a mom, which is really important to who I am too. Yeah.

Michelle Glogovac (00:50.982)
I love it. And a mom of three now, because in the book there's two and now we have three. So I was excited to learn that one. Congratulations.

Courtney Lund O'Neil (00:53.078)
Yes. Yes. Thank you so much. He's a little guy.

Michelle Glogovac (01:01.382)
So let's talk about the book because I was sharing with you, I was born in 81, so John Wayne Gacy, this was before my time, although he was still alive. But it really, I feel like it's a name that a lot of people know, but I don't know how many know the background. So can you give us a little synopsis on the background? And then I want to talk about how you came about to writing this book.

Courtney Lund O'Neil (01:29.145)
Yeah, I mean the background is that John Wayne Gacy is a very famous serial killer internationally people know his story He unfortunately raped and murdered 33 at least Boys and young men in the Chicago area and My mom was there when he took his final victim Rob Piest from their place of work Nissan pharmacy and just Plains, Illinois and

of 1978. And so my book kind of begins there in many ways about how one night can change so much.

Michelle Glogovac (02:07.426)
It's so crazy how close you are to it. And essentially, I don't know if you say this specifically in the book, but this is how I feel. Your mom put an end to John Wayne Gacy. She essentially is the one who stopped him from murdering anybody else, which is so big and heavy. Like it's an accomplishment that needs to be applauded. And yet at the same time to live with that too and go, wow.

That's incredible.

Courtney Lund O'Neil (02:39.744)
Yeah, yeah, it is definitely wild. It's kind of one of those things that feels not real, right? No one wants to be connected to this. Like she doesn't want to be connected to this story. I don't want to be connected to this story by being her daughter, but then there comes a point where you kind of just interrogate what is part of family history and what it means or how it shapes you. And so once I became a mom, I became really interested in how this shaped my mom's mothering and how she mothered me.

and then how it kind of impacted my own mothering and how we see safety in the world and how we see our places. And yeah, she is definitely, I think, a hero in my eyes because without her being kind of this prime witness, who's to say that he would not have gone on and on and on, right? And so it's a really terrible thing that happened, but on the flip side,

you know, he was stopped. And so that's, that is always something I think about and I'm grateful for.

Michelle Glogovac (03:46.106)
I think one of the craziest things for me as I read along was how there were so many missing young men, boys, young men, that this continued because you would think that 33 of them, all in the same area, all just suddenly disappear. And you mentioned in the book that, you know, back in the 70s, a missing child, it was just kind of reported and it didn't go further than that.

but it still is mind boggling to me that this continued to go on, that no one was out there actively searching. Did you find that in your research or how did that come into play? Because obviously that wouldn't happen here today and we're lucky that we have the internet and whatnot, but how did that go on for so long?

Courtney Lund O'Neil (04:34.57)
Yeah, I think there's probably two parts to that question. Two part answer is that one that Gacy was kind of this really good liar, really good manipulator, like really good wordsmith. He could convince people of anything. And even when Robb disappeared, he had kind of tried to tell them, I don't know what you're talking about. I've never seen this young man. This young woman who was my mom is my mom. She doesn't know what she's talking about.

Right? And so he was kind of this man of authority, a good citizen, you know, he had hoped to be seen as. But of course he wasn't. So he was just very good at maneuvering through society. And then you pair that with kind of this like cultural influence of there was just this ideology that young men and boys, wanted to like hitch a ride, hitch a train, hitch a bus and

go off and start a new life, especially if home life wasn't fantastic. Like that's just, that was kind of the cultural ideology of the time of young men. But of course, and that led police and authorities to not go deep into things. And I talked about this in the book with the prosecutor, Terry Sullivan, and what they would do with these kinds of cases. And so that was interesting to hear from him in my research process. And

And yeah, it's unfortunate that it happened. you're right, it wouldn't happen today. We have iPhones and we have a lot of technology in place to kind of not let this happen. But Rob, of course, didn't even fit any of those categories. He never would have ran away. He loved his family and his family was just not going to give up or roll over and say like,

sure we're going to listen to you and think, he's just another runaway. No, he's not another runaway. And so that was also an important part of the story.

Michelle Glogovac (06:30.8)
Let's go back so everybody can kind of get a glimpse of what we're talking about in regards to Rob and your mom. Can you just describe a little bit about that night? So we don't want, I you all to buy the book and read it, but give them some background as to how your mom fit in and what that night was like and what we're talking about.

Courtney Lund O'Neil (06:34.68)
you

Courtney Lund O'Neil (06:43.929)
Yes.

Courtney Lund O'Neil (06:51.672)
Yeah, so essentially, it was December 11, 1978. My mom and her coworker Rob Peace were friends. He was 15, she was 17. She was a senior in high school and he was a sophomore and they were just working a regular shift. They worked at this pharmacy called Nissan Pharmacy and they were just friends. And that night a contractor had come in and he was rebuilding shelving and trying to work

for the Torf brothers who owned the pharmacy. And he kind of had eyed Rob out. And at the end of the shift, he had come back and offered Rob, he offered a lot of young men jobs. lot of his victims, many of his victims were employed by him. Not many, but some of them. And so Rob had really wanted to save money to buy a Jeep. And so he thought, like,

this guy is offering to pay me double than what I make at the pharmacy. I'm going to talk with him about the potential work that I can get this upcoming summer. so Gacy said essentially, let me take you to my house. You can sign new hire paperwork. And he told my mom before leaving the store that night, hey, I'm going to go talk to this man. He says he's going to offer me double what I make. And it's like,

It was great, you it was, think they're making around 250 an hour and so $5, you know, it was a big deal. and so, you know, he said bye and then essentially never returned. And that kind of never returning catapulted the whole unfolding end of the case, essentially.

Michelle Glogovac (08:36.934)
It's so fascinating and you guys have to read this book because there's a photo receipt that goes in and your mom kept this journal and so we get a glimpse as to what she was thinking and going through and to be a witness and like the witness, it's incredible and she was so young and brave to have done this and...

stick to her word because these are all authoritative figures, police officers and attorneys who were like, you're going to be on the stand and it's pressure. No 17-year-old goes through this. So it's incredible. And then you went back to Illinois to visit all of these places, in some cases with your mom. How did this come about? At what point did you go, you know what, mom, I'm going to write a book and I want to tell your story?

Courtney Lund O'Neil (09:14.648)
you

Courtney Lund O'Neil (09:32.989)
Yeah, that's a really good question. Because all those things you talked about were integral to the book, the receipts later being found in Gacy's house and the diary she kept during that time. mean, I think she had told me for many years about keeping a diary about when her friend Rob disappeared. And I just became more curious about it as like probably any kid would, but probably especially the journalist and writer in me.

A lot of my training is in like professional training is in literary and creative nonfiction. So telling true stories. So thinking about artifacts like a diary and how that might influence the possible like body of work that you could think about, you know, writing around that was really interesting to me as a writer. But as a daughter, I want to learn who my mom was and we don't always get that as children.

And I felt like it was a really cool thing that I could figure out who she was at this really kind of tender age, like 17. Like I think we could all say, like we were very tender and vulnerable at 17 and to think about what she went through. just, my heart hurt. And I was just also so curious about how she handled it and who she was before and who she was after. cause she does have diary entries leading up.

to the night of December 11th then after that as well. So it's interesting to see like tonal shifts and things like that. But yeah, we went back there to do research after I knew I was writing a book. think that I had the idea that I could write a book when I published the first piece on this case. That was Halloween 2018 Harper's Bazaar published an interview between my mom and my

and a lot of people read it. People emailed me, people would remember the case, and it felt really important to me because I felt like my mom was such an integral part of the unfolding of this, you know, murder case, but her voice had kind of been omitted, like omitted in many ways. Like I didn't see her in the retellings. I always saw Gacy at the center, and that really bothered me because I thought,

Courtney Lund O'Neil (11:57.356)
Why do we keep retelling the story like with Casey was in Iowa and then he did this and this was his childhood. For me, I just felt like we were drawing the wrong attention to him over and over again, not just like one time, all the different ways I saw his story unfold, whether it would be a podcast or a documentary or something. He was always at the center and it kind of, as a writer and as a daughter, kind of pushed me to think like,

there's got to be another way that we tell this history. And because I see the effects on my mom today, even in myself, you know, I got to think that other people who knew victims or who were involved in this case somehow also feel like their stories were not told. And so I figured there's probably a book there after I published that interview with her and

and so, yeah, we, we went back together, do like original research on a place. And it was really special to spend time like where she grew up, you know, where she grew up in the apartment where, she was essentially told what was unfolding bodies are coming out of, you know, this guy's house that you saw. And, you know, she's still supposed to go to high school and take like her math tests or, swim in her swim meet and, and also.

watch what is happening around her. So yeah, it was really cool. I was like a writer and a daughter to be able to take that trip with her.

Michelle Glogovac (13:35.256)
It's really interesting. You mentioned that people keep looking at Gacy and his story and his childhood and all about him. And I think that as a society, we kind of sensationalize the murderer, the criminal aspect of it. And I know in the book, there's also mentioned that he was an artist and that his paintings were selling for ridiculous amounts and that people collect them.

It's crazy and weird, you know, but then we see like, I know right now in the news, we've got the Menendez brothers and you know, we, course we have got like Scott Peterson and women who want to marry them and who are pen pals and this weird, to me it's like a sickness. Like who's like, you've murdered someone. Let me tell you how much I love you. That's disgusting. And so weird on so many levels. Did you get any inkling as to why we see this as you?

Courtney Lund O'Neil (14:16.423)
Hahaha

Michelle Glogovac (14:33.722)
you know, unfolded all of these things with people who are looking at his art and wanting to collect it and stuff like that.

Courtney Lund O'Neil (14:42.292)
Yes, sir. It's a great question. And it's I could probably write a dissertation on it, but also have like so much research to do because I think everyone comes to it for different reasons. And I, I can't speak for the people that want to collect his heart. You know, there's, you know, I have spoken with someone that does collect his art and, you know, there is a part of me that really appreciates the preservation of history. And so there is like an important role in that. But then if there's just people that

want to collect the art because they are fans of his that, you know, gives me a lot of pause and societal and cultural concerns about why are we celebrating this person who did these horrific things. And you can see that for a lot of people, right? It's there's been a long history of people wanting to marry murderers, like you say, are in prison. And, and

Michelle Glogovac (15:35.856)
Weird.

Courtney Lund O'Neil (15:37.396)
Yeah, it's very weird. And that's why I feel like my book is not just true crime, because, you know, I don't do the things that sometimes true crime fans want, right? I'm giving a whole new angle and take on a story. And so I do really think about, like, women's stories, voices that aren't amplified. And I really considered that when writing the book, too, because I knew that I'm someone that

critiques the genre, but I also really appreciate the genre of true crime, right? Because I don't think it should go away because terrible things do happen and how do we approach them and can we approach them better? And like you said, the word sensationalize. I think that there's like definitely a line to walk since it's like being sensitive. And I definitely tried to walk that in the book as best as I could. How do I tell the facts?

while still being sensitive and how do I tell a good story while still being sensitive to what happened? And when it came to Gacy, really, there's gonna be a photo insert in the book and I wanted to make sure his face was not in my photo insert, right? So that's something that I could do to not give him power. you know, obviously I have to name him. His name is on my cover. You know, those are for just like marketing and like,

Michelle Glogovac (17:02.277)
Mm-hmm.

Courtney Lund O'Neil (17:02.516)
other reasons that I don't always have control over, but I understand the need for them. for me, I really wanted him just to be an uninteresting character, like a secondary character in the book. And I feel like that's how I could do my part in kind of dismantling this kind of power and like myth and lore. He's kind of held culturally for so long. And and hopefully people appreciate that.

Michelle Glogovac (17:28.644)
You it's funny is you mentioned the picture and I could not, I had no idea what he looked like. And it wasn't until that recent article in People that had his picture and I went, that's him? Really? I had something totally different pictured in my mind because I had never seen a picture of him that I know of or can recall. So I appreciate that you didn't give him that kind of a platform to, you know, be present and because it also makes it more real.

Courtney Lund O'Neil (17:34.392)
Mm.

Courtney Lund O'Neil (17:40.056)
you

Interesting.

Michelle Glogovac (17:58.756)
which is, you know, that's a very, it's a very scary part that this is a real story. This happened and there are still victims that are unnamed, which is also completely baffling. But that means that there's families out there who haven't gotten that confirmation either.

Courtney Lund O'Neil (17:58.84)
Mm-hmm.

Courtney Lund O'Neil (18:07.384)
Mm-hmm.

Courtney Lund O'Neil (18:11.32)
Mm-hmm.

Courtney Lund O'Neil (18:15.48)
Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I think that it's important to try to continue to name them. And I think as time goes on, it's going to get harder because again, people die. And that's part of the reason like why I wanted to write this story. People are getting older. People might not remember it as much. That's why it was important for me to go back to that place, interview people that knew my mom, interview Terry Sullivan, who was the, you know, was a prosecutor.

and to figure out, you know, how does this case stand the test of time and what can we learn from it today. I think that was really important to me. And yeah.

Michelle Glogovac (18:58.894)
I loved it because it wasn't just about the crime, it wasn't just about your mother and how she was a witness, but you also included, I went, my bachelor's and my master's are in law, so I appreciated the courtroom drama and seeing two attorneys, how they do things differently and yet they compliment each other so well. To be able to see, there's a love story in it too with your mom and her high school relationship and then,

Courtney Lund O'Neil (19:11.424)
Hmm.

Courtney Lund O'Neil (19:18.2)
Hmm.

Michelle Glogovac (19:28.678)
who she ultimately marries, your dad, and how that came together. There's so much more, there's the family relationships of Rob's family and how much they loved him and were together. And so I appreciated all these other different aspects. It wasn't just like reading about murders.

Courtney Lund O'Neil (19:31.32)
Mm-hmm.

Courtney Lund O'Neil (19:38.648)
Mm-hmm.

Courtney Lund O'Neil (19:47.402)
Yeah, yeah, thank you for saying that because because I wanted to feel very layered because that's life, right? And I think sometimes true crime leaves that out kind of the layering, the nuance and complexities of life and people and right and like everything is a love story in many ways, right? And you know, my mom, platonically may have really loved Rob and grieved that friendship so deeply and also had a boyfriend during the time who I get to go back and interview, you know,

decades later and then how she met my amazing dad who I love and has supported her in new ways in adulthood and her mothering and how she handles the case today in that role. so it's really interesting to see you as a reader really like grasp onto those things that were important to me. again, that's why, you know, true crime readers might be like, what's happening here? Like there's a lot of memoir in the book along with journalism.

biography and that sort of thing. But the memoir parts are dear to my heart because it's, you know, that's everyone has a life and internal worlds and loves and losses. And it's like, my mom and I always talk about it being just the ripple effect of so much, right? The case kind of like dropped the stone and like all these ripples came out because of it and from it.

Michelle Glogovac (21:12.622)
And essentially, you you talk in the book and I kept thinking generational trauma. That's the word that kept coming up for me of how your mom was affected and how she passed that on to you and your sister and you know, how that then passes on to how you're parenting your children. And this essentially is a way for you to hold all of that for your kids and to share this story with them so that they know what it is, you know, and don't have to carry so much of that trauma of.

Courtney Lund O'Neil (21:38.327)
Mm.

Michelle Glogovac (21:40.912)
We have to be careful with our children in this sense because grandma went through this and that, but you're also memorializing it so that they always have the true story of what happened in your family and essentially created this family and how you all operate and work together.

Courtney Lund O'Neil (21:46.05)
Mm-hmm.

Courtney Lund O'Neil (21:52.728)
you

Courtney Lund O'Neil (22:03.096)
Yeah, that was just so beautiful how you said that. Yeah, I mean, you definitely like you're my target reader. You got it. You did read the book, right? You weren't like a Gacy fan came to and like, this is not what I want to know. You read the book and understood about what it was. And so as a writer, I just like, just appreciate it, right? That what you try to do can translate to the readership. And it's really interesting your background in law. And I get to talk about that.

Michelle Glogovac (22:10.918)
I read the book.

Courtney Lund O'Neil (22:32.834)
that I want to say something that I have like in the middle of this epic chapter, right? Like the courtroom drama, as you called it. And I wanted it to feel very epic because it felt epic to my mom, I think. So I wanted to like take up physical space in the book because, you know, that transcript is so long. So it's like, what do you pick? What do you leave out? Right. And so I just want to say thank you for appreciating that. And I think that people who are interested in the case will

perhaps appreciate that too, right? Because it is almost at times just verbatim, like in their voice, right? The people that took the stand, the defense, the prosecution. And so, yeah, thanks for saying that too.

Michelle Glogovac (23:14.768)
Yeah, I felt like I was there. I felt like I was in the courtroom. I was witnessing this. I felt like I was in his house as they were going through it. It was so realistic. And as they were cringing with the smells, I was like, okay, I'm there too. You did a fantastic job as a writer to capture all of this and bring us there and then to know that somebody has rebuilt their house on the land.

Courtney Lund O'Neil (23:17.006)
Thank

Courtney Lund O'Neil (23:24.098)
That was hard.

Michelle Glogovac (23:43.568)
I mean, that's creepy. Do they know? They must know.

Courtney Lund O'Neil (23:47.08)
Yeah, I mean, I think in like, state law, if I remember right, they don't have to disclose anything, but you got to think they know. And in the beginning of the book, I kind of opened with my mom and I going back there for the first time. And wow, yeah, she it was, it felt scary. It felt weird. They're, you know,

It was just like an energy that just kind of like whipped you out of like your regular state. And it was just bizarre. I don't ever forget that moment of, you know, that mailman coming up to us and like saying, yeah, this is the house that is rebuilt and you're not going to believe it essentially, but people are still sending John Wayne Gacy mail. And this was before I knew I was going to write a book, but I never forgot my interaction with that mailman and thinking that.

is just so weird and that people think that I don't even know what goes through people's mind, but it was just kind of scary that people think that they could send John Wayne Gacy an email like he's been like he was executed like he's been gone a very long time and then I felt bad for the mailman right and thinking about my goodness how is that for him to like take this mail parcel and think what do do with this because you know this person doesn't live in this house right.

Michelle Glogovac (25:09.338)
Yeah.

Courtney Lund O'Neil (25:09.376)
And so thinking about those ripple effects and how this case affects someone like this, this mailman, right? Who doesn't probably want anything to do with it. And so that's when I began thinking about too, like how, you know, the degrees of separation with this case are so small sometimes and thinking about how people on the periphery, like the mailman are affected and we're not always thinking about them and how can we think about them a little better?

Michelle Glogovac (25:38.67)
And for the people who live there, do you accept the mail and then put not at this address and return to sender? It's very weird. And that's got to be a constant reminder for them, too, that maybe they're OK with living here. They don't think about it. I assume there's no haunting of anything, but that would be a creepy feeling in general to live there. But then to be reminded with this mail so often.

Courtney Lund O'Neil (25:42.178)
I really don't know.

Courtney Lund O'Neil (25:55.416)
Mm-hmm.

Courtney Lund O'Neil (26:02.688)
Yeah.

Michelle Glogovac (26:07.718)
You can't forget.

Courtney Lund O'Neil (26:10.028)
Yeah, you can't forget, but then also it does feel if you're there and you don't know anything about it you wouldn't know because and that was something that kind of irked irked us and we were back there because I don't believe Anywhere in Death Plains has a memorial of some sort and I just have always wondered why you know, like there was this really great tragedy there and Why aren't why isn't the city honoring the victims?

Michelle Glogovac (26:35.878)
Mm-hmm.

Courtney Lund O'Neil (26:36.052)
in some way, not like the memorial needs to be at the house, right? Because people own the house and that's their own lives. But somewhere I've always wondered, yeah, it is probably weird for those people to live there. But then I always think about the victims and remembering them and why isn't there a plaque or a bench or something where they're not forgotten.

Michelle Glogovac (26:57.274)
Yeah. It was also interesting to me. I don't know why this just popped up, but when you went to the bridge and you were like, well, no, you couldn't have just like flung someone over. That was impossible. And yet that didn't seem to come up when the investigation was going on of someone going, huh, no, I don't think that could have happened here. And obviously he shows up all muddy and you know, it feels like it took too long for something to happen when

Courtney Lund O'Neil (27:00.824)
Mm.

Courtney Lund O'Neil (27:08.182)
Mm-hmm.

Courtney Lund O'Neil (27:26.456)
Mm-hmm.

Michelle Glogovac (27:27.182)
all of the signs, at least to me, to you, pointed to, yeah, this guy did something wrong. Which also brings up, I have to talk about the owners of the pharmacy because at first when I read that Rob's family sued them, I was like, my, that's not very kind. And then as I continued on, went, but they knew him and they wouldn't say where he lived and all of this. like, hmm, were they ever investigated?

Courtney Lund O'Neil (27:34.2)
Mm-hmm.

Courtney Lund O'Neil (27:53.502)
Yeah, I mean, supposedly, but I don't think it went anywhere. I think I brought this up with my interview with Terry Sullivan, if I can remember. when my mom and I went there, we had some concerns, I think, just to say the least that, yeah, why weren't they investigated? You know, got to think they knew where Gacy lived.

Michelle Glogovac (28:20.134)
Yeah.

Courtney Lund O'Neil (28:21.08)
and couldn't have been more of a help that night. Both of the owners weren't there, it just one of them. But still, that was a big thing after my mom and I went there, we're like, could he have been stopped, right? If somehow we had gotten there really quickly and not we, wasn't alive, but the pharmacy owner, his mom, my mom, if there was more urgency,

you think, whoa, could things have ended differently? And that's really painful thought. I think that, and I don't know if like that suit actually went through, but it was still like, yeah, I mean, after we didn't re-invoke people would see like, that makes sense. You you didn't take care of my son essentially, and like that's part of your job as.

Michelle Glogovac (29:12.09)
Yeah, you were negligent. Like you knew that he disappeared while on shift. How does that not come into play? It's to me, it's like if I have a babysitter at the house and I watch her walk to her car and then she leaves and I'm not like, hey, somebody comes and talks to her in the street. I'm not going to be like, cool. Well, see you later. your mom said you never came home. That's too bad. Like that's not normal. So that's why I was like this.

Courtney Lund O'Neil (29:39.254)
Yeah.

Michelle Glogovac (29:41.632)
is odd and weird and how do you not take responsibility or ownership? Obviously you don't want to be at fault for something.

Courtney Lund O'Neil (29:48.47)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was probably part of it as well. and yeah, there's, you know, this case is just such a big case. And there's so many kind of conspiracy theories of things I try not to pay attention to. But sometimes they slip through and I'll like, I'll hear one and like, I could see that or no, I couldn't see that. But, you know, that night and what could have been done differently? Like there's, there's, there's always like some talk about that, I think. And so

It is unfortunate and strange. Yeah.

Michelle Glogovac (30:22.106)
What do you hope will come from the book?

Courtney Lund O'Neil (30:26.424)
I had small hopes that are already accomplished. Like my mom has read the book and she really likes it. And, you know, I entered this story as a daughter and a writer. And so that she likes it just means so much to me because I just tried to honor her experience in the best way that I could. So that is a hope that has been granted. And I also have like other hopes that

people will enjoy the book and recommend it and that it's a good read. And I also hope that people might imagine this case or other cases and other people affected that they might not have considered.

in anything, right? So can think about any major case like a school shooting or 9-11 and think about this small character, maybe they had a big role, maybe they didn't. How has something so huge impacted their life? And I think that there's a lot more space in the true crime or just storytelling world about how we invite more stories, more voices.

to be told because there is a problem and there is a danger with like that single story of, know, Gacy was this and that and authorities did this and that and then that's the end. think, you know, that's been replicated so much in true crime. And I think that it's time to, yeah, make space for some evolution of that.

Michelle Glogovac (32:01.668)
love that. I think you've done a fantastic job and you're paving the way for that to all happen and start bigger than what it is now. So thank you. Congratulations on the book. It's out today. Where can everyone buy the book and find you?

Courtney Lund O'Neil (32:13.868)
Thank you. Yay.

Yes, by the book, you can buy wherever books are sold, whatever is easiest for you supporting your bookstore, Amazon, Barnes and Noble, bookshop, whatever you whatever you'd like. And you can find me at CourtneyLondoniel.com. And you can find me on Instagram and TikTok at CourtneyLondoniel. So yeah, thank you so much for having me, Michelle. You were a wonderful person to speak to. So thank you.

Michelle Glogovac (32:46.278)
thank you, Courtney, and thank you for sharing your mom's story and for her willingness to share it with all of us because I think it's an important one that we all need to hear.

Courtney Lund O'Neil (32:56.65)
Awesome. Thank you so much.