Michelle Glogovac (00:01.079) Hi Lauren. I am so happy to talk to you as I've already told you my smile hasn't left. I've been so looking forward to this. Can you introduce yourself to everyone please? Lauren Ling Brown (00:02.712) Bye. Lauren Ling Brown (00:13.728) Yes, thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here. I'm Lauren Ling Brown and I'm the author of Society of Lies, a Reese's Book Club pick, and a recent USA Today bestseller. Thank you. It's my debut novel. Michelle Glogovac (00:25.995) Congratulations. That's quite a debut. It's like you went to the top. So the next one's got to be, you know, no pressure at all, Lauren Ling Brown (00:33.581) I'm sorry. Thank you. Michelle Glogovac (00:40.757) You are the first Reese author that I've had on, so I'm I'm starstruck. No, it's mine. And the book was incredible. I know that I sent you messages throughout because I'm one of those people. And I love that there was a connection to San Jose because you grew up here. So right away I was like, Lauren Ling Brown (00:46.294) Wow, I feel it's such an honor. Lauren Ling Brown (00:53.912) Thank you. I really, I love that. Thank you. Lauren Ling Brown (01:05.218) Yeah. Michelle Glogovac (01:07.531) I even told my husband, I'm like, this book, she's from San Jose. It's fantastic, isn't it? And then you also had a part where the women go into the BVI, the British Virgin Islands, for those of you who haven't been there, and they go to Virgin Gorda. And so I had to tell you that I'd been to Necker and I knew exactly where you're talking about. I love it. And give everybody a little synopsis without the spoilers, because I know you'll do a better job than I will on what the book's about. Lauren Ling Brown (01:11.915) Yeah. Lauren Ling Brown (01:19.691) Are you a ass? Lauren Ling Brown (01:26.998) Yeah, it's amazing. Lauren Ling Brown (01:36.942) Yes, so Society of Life is a mystery set at Princeton about two sisters who get invited to join the same secret society and then one of them ends up dead and the older sister comes back to kind of solve that mystery and figure out what happened to her sister. Michelle Glogovac (01:55.561) It is so good. I didn't see certain things coming and I was like, yeah, where are we going with this? It was fantastic. Lauren Ling Brown (01:57.176) Thanks. Lauren Ling Brown (02:04.238) Thank you. I really appreciate that. Michelle Glogovac (02:10.473) And so what brought you to, you went to Princeton in real life. What gave you this idea? now are also secret societies, are they a thing or aren't they? Because you say no, but then I recently read that somebody who went to, I think it was Yale, was part of the Skulls and Bones or something. was something, I'm like, I think there's some real components to this. Lauren Ling Brown (02:14.092) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Lauren Ling Brown (02:26.254) Thank Lauren Ling Brown (02:30.84) Huh. Lauren Ling Brown (02:38.674) Yeah, well, okay, so I did a lot of research for the book on secret societies, and there are at Yale at a lot of the colleges, but Princeton's main social life revolves around these eating clubs, which are more like coed frats. Michelle Glogovac (02:55.499) Okay, that makes more sense. was like, so you just, go eat and get secret and it felt very much like old houses, of almost cast like mansions that they'd be going into and you obviously had to be wealthy because you had to have outfits and there were parties. What gave you this idea though to have this murder mystery component and all of it? Lauren Ling Brown (03:05.912) Mm-hmm. Lauren Ling Brown (03:13.408) Thank Lauren Ling Brown (03:20.714) Well, I love reading Agatha Christie. I loved dark academia like the secret history or the rule of four, which was another murder mystery set at Princeton. And I wanted to see someone who reminded me of myself in this genre and create a thriller that was entertaining, but also kind of started conversations around more difficult subjects that we don't always talk about. And so I just thought about who I was when I was in high school and I first got off the train at Princeton and imagined what if instead of finding dance in this group that I did fit into, what if I joined an evil secret society, like a fictional one that doesn't exist and got sucked into it. And then I built that character of Maya on top of that and thought if she'd been through this, what is her character like? She's insecure, she really wants to fit in, she wants to belong. And that was sort of the heart of the book. Michelle Glogovac (04:22.793) It was amazing. I loved it and how you went back and forth too with her sister and what that was like. You could feel the heartbreak of her. She's struggling between having the sister who's still out here in San Jose and wanting to bring her, but then having nowhere to really put her and no money and that struggle of I want more for my sister, but how do I do that when I'm also trying? Lauren Ling Brown (04:29.198) Mm-hmm. Michelle Glogovac (04:51.553) to make more for myself. Lauren Ling Brown (04:53.42) Yeah, totally. The sister relationship is so important to me and at the heart of the book because I have a sister who's four years younger than me and I just wanted to create this dynamic between Maya, the older sister, and Naomi, the younger sister, where they care about each other so much but they don't always have the right words to communicate that. That kind of sisterly bond and sisterly love. And so, Maya makes some bad decisions. No spoilers, but... Michelle Glogovac (05:22.903) She's only human, right? Lauren Ling Brown (05:25.376) I guess. Michelle Glogovac (05:28.891) I loved it. Now tell me what was it like to get, I'm imagining it was a phone call or maybe it was an email to say that you're the Reese's book club pick. Lauren Ling Brown (05:39.162) It was honestly the best day of my life. have been reading both of those were a lot of best days, a lot of days. No, I felt so lucky because I had been reading Reese's Book Club books since 2017 when it was founded. And she has just been like a role model to me for so long. Michelle Glogovac (05:42.103) Better than the book deal? and you got engaged, so maybe he shouldn't listen. Lauren Ling Brown (06:07.224) from far before then to just championing women's stories and building this female-led company, Hello Sunshine, that is just doing so much for the industry and for women writers and for women actors. It's just really incredible to be a part of it. So I was completely shocked, overjoyed, and shaking and screaming and crying. Michelle Glogovac (06:33.313) So who tells you? Is it your agent or is it, does Reese like get on the phone and she's like, hi, this is Reese. Lauren Ling Brown (06:37.582) It's kind of a funny story actually. So I was going to go on vacation to the Dominican Republic and a couple of days before I got stung by a bee and my legs swelled up and I was like, this is really bad luck. And then a seagull pooped on me at the same time. exactly. So my fiance was like, Lauren, that's extra good luck to get stung in poop time. Michelle Glogovac (06:58.295) That's good luck, isn't it? Lauren Ling Brown (07:07.246) And then we go on vacation and my agent and editor call and they're like, Lauren, we have really good news. Reese wants you to be a part of the book club. And so it turns out it was good luck. Michelle Glogovac (07:22.039) That's amazing luck. And then when did you get to meet her? Lauren Ling Brown (07:26.206) So Shine Away is this big conference. It's like Coachella for Hello Sunshine community. And all of these women, thousands of women come and you get to see female leaders in different industries. And I got to meet Reese there and it was just a really cool experience. Michelle Glogovac (07:48.599) That's amazing. It always falls on my kids' fall break. And so we're always – we've been in Hawaii the last three years. Like, man, the school doesn't understand. They're eight and nine. Yeah. Lauren Ling Brown (07:56.11) okay. perfect. Because she's actually having one for young girls soon. Yeah, I think it's like in the next year or so. Keep an eye out. Yeah. Michelle Glogovac (08:05.089) Michelle Glogovac (08:09.399) because, I will, because I've got the younger, she's on companion pass, so we can fly down for cheap. Yeah. And then we'll, that would, I'd be the mom of the century if that happened. So I'll definitely keep an eye out for that. I want to talk about your journey to writing. And I know that I've read your BionStock, June. So I know that there was like some really hard times that you were going through. Lauren Ling Brown (08:15.468) perfect. Lauren Ling Brown (08:24.163) Hello. Michelle Glogovac (08:39.105) So can you share what that was like and let people know what was going on? Lauren Ling Brown (08:44.652) Yeah, I think it's so interesting because on social media we often see the result of a lot of years of maybe difficulty or hard work and then at the end you think, wow, they're so lucky, like their life is amazing and it probably is in a lot of ways, but I just think it's so important to talk about the struggle as well. So for me, I have this old knee injury from high school. When I was 15, a girl purposely took out my knee in a soccer game. And so ever since then, I've had five surgeries on it. And over the pandemic, I had to have a surgery on my knee and then on both hips as well. And so it was three years of being on crutches for four to seven months at a time for each surgery and then recovering and then doing it again. And so I was definitely really depressed. I had also gone through a bad breakup and like crying every day. And so I needed something to kind of heal. And I ended up revisiting an old screenplay that I wrote seven years earlier, which was about a secret society at Princeton. And so I started writing novels. And it wasn't the first one that I wrote, actually. I wrote two other ones before Society of Lies, but I had all this time. I was working from home, but I couldn't walk at the time. So I poured all of that and all of my emotion into my writing, I guess. Michelle Glogovac (10:25.943) and then it just happened. Lauren Ling Brown (10:27.854) No, I studied a lot. I studied all the craft books like Save the Cat, Stephen King's memoir on writing, Bird by Bird. There are just so many good craft books that sort of teach you how to write a novel and did a lot of research. Michelle Glogovac (10:48.631) And then what do do in, I want to say in real life, like this isn't real life, but you have another full-time job. What is that? I know what it is, but what is it for everybody who doesn't? Lauren Ling Brown (10:52.494) Yeah. Lauren Ling Brown (10:58.112) Yeah. Yeah. So I work as a film editor and while I was writing Society of Lies, I mostly had to write it on the weekends or before or after work. I was working as an assistant editor at the time on different TV shows and films. and it's a pretty intense job post-production. Anyone who's familiar with editing or, or assistant editing, it's definitely all consuming while you're there. So I didn't have much time to write while I was working. Michelle Glogovac (11:32.791) That's a lot to write other times. Before we got on this, I was writing. The only reason that I'm like, okay, I have to sit down and write was because another author had sent me an email yesterday going, I didn't write, but check in with me tomorrow. I'm like, well, I better write something too if I'm going to ask what she's written. Lauren Ling Brown (11:51.694) Yeah, I mean it sounds like a lot but I just try to do a little bit every day. Michelle Glogovac (12:01.941) And so are you writing something next? Does it fall in line with society of lies or is this totally different? Lauren Ling Brown (12:04.428) Mm-hmm. I'm working on a book, Lauren Ling Brown (12:11.584) It's totally different, but a couple side characters make quick little Easter egg appearances. It's a multi-generational mystery. So mothers and daughters, and it's also about friendship, friends who grow apart and come back together. It leans a little bit more contemporary fiction than thriller for this next one. Thanks. Michelle Glogovac (12:17.894) good. Michelle Glogovac (12:34.731) I can't wait. Because I sent you a long list of who I need to hear more about. Lauren Ling Brown (12:38.318) Yes, I like all those ideas. Michelle Glogovac (12:41.911) I'm like, give me more what happens to all of these people. We need it. Come on. I feel like Society of Lies should somehow become a movie. Lauren Ling Brown (12:44.868) Thank you. Lauren Ling Brown (12:53.036) That would be very cool. Movie or TV series, would be like a whole dream. Michelle Glogovac (12:56.605) Yeah, one or the other, because I can see it and I'm sure that people would be intrigued by it because it is a whole world that many of us, most of us do not get to be privy to, which is why I thought it was so much fun. Lauren Ling Brown (13:10.72) Mm-hmm. Thanks. And it is definitely like a murder mystery thriller version of that world. The eating clubs and the Princeton experience I had was a lot more positive than the Greystone, the fake secret society, know, Greystone society. Thank you. Me too. Michelle Glogovac (13:31.307) I'm so glad that you didn't experience murders while going to college. Yeah, I loved how it was very, okay, wait, no, who… And there were parts where I went, he did it. yeah, that one. he's totally guilty. And then you gave little nuggets too of, this and that, and then this person's involved. You're like, wow, this was even bigger than I really thought. Lauren Ling Brown (13:46.552) Thank Lauren Ling Brown (13:55.086) Thank Michelle Glogovac (13:59.819) thought it was going to be. It was clever, maybe a little disturbing that you wrote it. Lauren Ling Brown (14:01.474) Mm-hmm. Lauren Ling Brown (14:05.682) Thanks. I know I always give my mom my writing to read. She's my first reader. And I always wonder like, what does she think about this? Does she think like, this is all in my head? What have I done? Michelle Glogovac (14:15.403) Ha ha ha Michelle Glogovac (14:21.035) Love it. Can we talk a bit about Acro Yoga? Yeah, total topic change, but I'm thinking you brought up your mom and I'm thinking fiance and I'm like, let's talk about how you guys met because that story is too cute and too like that could be its own book if you want to do a rom-com. Take us down that path, please. As I'm just like, I put my blinker on, I'm detouring. Lauren Ling Brown (14:25.292) Yeah, yeah, quick topic change. Lauren Ling Brown (14:41.772) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Lauren Ling Brown (14:47.446) Okay, it's kind of a meet cute story. So I was doing yoga on the beach, not on the beach on a little patch of grass in Santa Monica that overlooks the beach. So I was just doing yoga, you know, having a great nice day. And my fiance is really into acro yoga. And he was doing acro yoga out there with some other people. And then So Acro Yoga is acrobatic yoga, kind of like what you'd see cheerleaders do on cheer, if you've watched that, or kind of partner stretches. And so he came up to me and he's this really friendly, nice guy. And he was like, hi, I'm Brad. Do you want to try Acro Yoga? Have you ever heard of it? And I was like, you know what? I actually have heard of it and sure. And then we did some Acro Yoga. It was really fun. And the next day I asked some friends who, it was a teacher who was giving me lessons, acro yoga lessons. I was like, do you know this guy, Brad? He just came up to me on the beach and he actually did know him and put in a good word. So I learned that he wasn't just some random, random stranger on the beach. Michelle Glogovac (16:03.817) he doesn't just go up to all women doing yoga and say, do you want to try some macro yoga with me? Lauren Ling Brown (16:10.828) I guess it worked. Michelle Glogovac (16:13.783) I love it. And your story on your website is so cute how he's helped you through these surgeries. it was, it feels like it was really him who went, Hey, nudge nudge. Your screenplays are really good. Keep going. Lauren Ling Brown (16:25.902) Yeah, yeah. So he was actually, over the pandemic, he read that screenplay that I was telling you about, which was based similar to Society of Lies, the same kind of seed of the idea. And he's like, you know what, why don't you write anymore? This is pretty good. And so that's what started me writing again. I had more or less completely given up on the dream of being a writer at that point. Michelle Glogovac (16:53.143) That's amazing because to think that you'd written so much, you were ready to just say, whatever, I'm done. So what prompted him to read it? He just picked it up somewhere. There must have been a seed that was planted that you were like, hey, do you want to read this? Lauren Ling Brown (17:00.578) Mmm, yeah. Lauren Ling Brown (17:04.919) Right. Lauren Ling Brown (17:11.532) Yeah, good question. So it was probably after my first surgery of the pandemic, which was my knee, and he was giving me ice around the clock. I had this ice machine just icing in bed and we were looking for things to do. We played a little Mario Kart. We read books together. He introduced me to this book called Flow. about flow state and then he's like, and then I must've told him that I used to write and I love writing and reading. And so he probably asked, you know, what have you written? And I showed him that screenplay. Michelle Glogovac (17:49.655) I love it. Thanks, Brad. Thanks for making all of us, you gave us a book that we couldn't put down and even Reese was like, yeah, go Brad. Lauren Ling Brown (17:51.21) Yeah, it's fun. Thank He is a really supportive partner, I have to say. He's a good one. Michelle Glogovac (18:03.103) love that. That's awesome. It's so nice that he's the one who encouraged you and now you have this cute little happy story that's going to have wedding bells here soon. That's awesome. I love it. So what is he doing? How is he excited about this? I don't know, from a male perspective with your Reese book pick, is he like, Lauren Ling Brown (18:14.346) Yeah. Lauren Ling Brown (18:25.708) Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know, he's so excited for me. He came to Shinaway and was there in the audience supporting me so I could see his face in the crowd when we were on stage for a Thriller panel. And he came to my book launch at Zibby's Bookstore in Santa Monica, Zibby's Bookshop. And he set up all these little popcorns for everyone and the music playlist. He plays music himself. So he composed this song on piano and then I read a scene, a chapter from Society of Lies over it and we recorded it. It's a fun creative collaboration. Yeah. Michelle Glogovac (19:02.814) I love that. That's awesome. I'm going to have to go find that on YouTube because I know it's all of her bookstrap stuff. I did a signing there too. So I'm like, I know it's all on YouTube. So I'm going to go find that. That sounds amazing. I love it. And then what's your sister think? Lauren Ling Brown (19:14.99) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Lauren Ling Brown (19:26.826) She loved it. So I didn't let her read it until I read her a few scenes from the early drafts, but I didn't let her read the whole thing until the final version because it changed so much. And she called me and it made me tear up because she was like, Lauren, feel like I understand you as a person more after reading this. And we have had our own ups and downs throughout our entire life. And now that we're both in our thirties, we are much closer and understand each other more. And so it was a really nice shared experience. Michelle Glogovac (20:01.015) Well, that's amazing. And then let's also talk about, because I know this was a big part of why you wanted to write it, that you are half black, half Chinese. you. And so the characters, Maya and Naomi, as well. share how that played such an important aspect in you writing these characters to represent you and others that we don't see as much of. Lauren Ling Brown (20:09.934) Chaining. Lauren Ling Brown (20:17.464) Mm-hmm. Lauren Ling Brown (20:27.574) Yeah, so growing up, I didn't see people who reminded me of myself in stories, especially not in this thriller space. So I wanted to create a story that revolved around a character who was Black and Chinese, who went through some of the same things that I did throughout my life. And it's not just based on my life at Princeton. It's also inspired by interactions I've had growing up being feeling like an outsider in a lot of spaces. really wanting to belong and just everything I experienced trying to figure out who I was and grow into my identity and feel proud of my Black and Asian identity. And it took time, but I feel like I became the person that the younger sister Naomi is. She is, you know, confident, knows right from wrong, and she loves who she is and embraces both sides of her identity. And so I wanted to write the whole experience into this debut book. Michelle Glogovac (21:34.623) I love that. So you and your sister will have to play yourselves. Lauren Ling Brown (21:38.926) No, I prefer you to shine the camera. Michelle Glogovac (21:46.311) but I love that. Will that continue as a theme in your next book? Lauren Ling Brown (21:52.334) Definitely, yes. There are lots of multiracial characters because I just want to show our experiences as completely nuanced. Like there's not a one-note character because sometimes you read these books or see these shows and if you see a multiracial character they're only one or the other. They're not embracing their full identity or they're maybe not fully developed, I guess. And so I hope to show the whole range. Michelle Glogovac (22:25.239) I love that. Can we talk a bit about, I feel like the boyfriend Liam was, I don't know if he meant to be abusive, but I kind of felt like he really was. And obviously that carried on from what he experienced as well, but that was a big part of the book too, I felt, in these really abusive relationships, both from the female characters and the male. Lauren Ling Brown (22:30.658) Mm-hmm. Lauren Ling Brown (22:35.414) Yeah. Lauren Ling Brown (22:42.606) Mm-hmm. Lauren Ling Brown (22:46.923) Mm. Lauren Ling Brown (22:54.763) Yeah. Michelle Glogovac (22:56.201) And talk about that a bit if you can. Lauren Ling Brown (22:59.606) Yeah, I really wanted to show how trauma and abuse and the cycle of abuse is generational and can be passed on from one generation to the next. So Liam grew up in a household where he was neglected and he became this in his relationships when he's not at his best, he became this kind of alcoholic really, he was addicted to alcohol and he took that out on Naomi. And so I wanted to make sure that that felt real and from my lived experience too. Yeah. And it's just so hard to see it when you're in those kinds of relationships, especially when you're younger and your twenties or even earlier. And in college, there's this big culture around drinking. So I think sometimes people don't even realize that the behavior around alcohol is not normal and not healthy until maybe we're much older and past that looking back. that was really, yeah, an important part of the story to me. Michelle Glogovac (24:19.061) Yeah, I feel like we're talking about these deeper topics now because they all play huge parts of this book that is entertaining and suspenseful and yet it also makes you think and reflect on all of these different things that are really heavy and need to be talked about because we don't talk about it, especially as you said, this going on in college. How many women are experiencing this? Lauren Ling Brown (24:24.91) Mm-hmm. Lauren Ling Brown (24:36.813) Mm-hmm. Lauren Ling Brown (24:43.894) Yeah. Mm-hmm, so many. And I have so many close female friends and I'm so lucky to have them in my life. And we don't even always want to bring up the most difficult parts of our life because you want to show up for your friends and be optimistic and be happy, you know, and be supportive of them. But I think having stories like this allows us to go to our book clubs to to talk with our friends if they've read it as well and talk about these characters lives instead of talking about our own, which might be harder, and to sort of work through some of these things by thinking about someone else. Michelle Glogovac (25:26.569) I that and I couldn't agree more. interviewed another woman whose book has the topics of abortion in it and she went to a book club listening to what others said and all of a sudden all of these, it was older women too, were like, yeah, me, I had one, I had one. And nobody knew that this was the story that everybody else had and shared because like you said, nobody's talking about these stories that are traumatic. Lauren Ling Brown (25:42.766) and Michelle Glogovac (25:53.303) I think there's also the worry and the fear of who's going to judge me that I've been through this, whether it's most likely not your fault, especially if we're talking about abuse or trauma or whatever, that's not your fault. And yet we don't talk about it because of that fear. Lauren Ling Brown (26:06.19) and Yeah, there's so much shame around it. And it feels like while you're experiencing this, you're the only one in the world who has gone through something like that. And what I love about books in general is they allow us to build empathy for other people. Michelle Glogovac (26:23.905) Yes, yes, you are speaking my language. I say that about podcasts too, which is why I'm like, it all comes together. The books, the interviews, we need to hear these stories to be able to talk to one another and experience life, especially the situations that we've never experienced or we might never experience. But to know that this is what someone's been through, it might make the world a better place someday. Lauren Ling Brown (26:27.214) Yes! Lauren Ling Brown (26:33.132) Mm-hmm. Lauren Ling Brown (26:43.842) Mm-hmm. Lauren Ling Brown (26:48.436) Yeah, I agree. And I want to keep telling women's stories too. That's really important to me to also help uplift other women. Michelle Glogovac (26:58.817) I love this, I love you. I'm like, I wanna be your friend next time you come up here. Lauren Ling Brown (27:00.955) Me too! Michelle Glogovac (27:09.653) When can we find your next? When is your next book coming out and where can we find you and follow you? And everybody, if you want to slide into her DMs, she answers. Lauren Ling Brown (27:17.614) You can find me, mostly on Instagram at laurenlingbrown.com. My website is also laurenlingbrown.com where you can find, I try to keep it updated with any events that I'm doing. And there's no date yet for book two, but I'll keep you posted. Yeah, working hard on it. Michelle Glogovac (27:38.839) Yay. I can't wait. Yeah, between that and wedding planning, you've got a full plate and the full-time job. Yeah, you got something going on. Lauren Ling Brown (27:45.89) you I have taken a little break from the full-time job to work on book two, so I can't do everything now, Michelle Glogovac (27:55.072) good, then it comes quicker. Yay. Lauren, thank you so much for coming on and for highlighting such important topics and themes and women in your book. I so appreciate you and I'm just so excited that we got to meet. Lauren Ling Brown (28:11.126) I appreciate you. Thanks so much for having me. It was so fun. Just this conversation was great. Thank you.