Michelle Glogovac (00:01.006) Hey Tracy, I'm so excited. I've been looking forward to this day for weeks. Traci (she/her) (00:02.158) Ha! Traci (she/her) (00:06.734) I'm excited, but I hope that I do not disappoint. my gosh, it's a lot of pressure. Michelle Glogovac (00:12.226) No pressure, no, we always have fun and no pressure at all. I'm just very excited to get to know you and you know, from more than just stalking you on Instagram and whatnot. Traci (she/her) (00:15.757) Okay. Traci (she/her) (00:21.622) Yeah. I love to be stocked. I love attention. I'm a Leo, so I love all forms of attention. Okay. Okay. Michelle Glogovac (00:27.534) good. I am the ultimate stalker. Ask anyone I stalk in a good way that won't get me arrested. Traci (she/her) (00:34.958) Well, it's okay if it gets you arrested every once in a while. You gotta kind of push to the edge. Michelle Glogovac (00:40.312) I prefer not to, but can you introduce yourself to everyone, please? Traci (she/her) (00:45.098) Yeah, I'm Tracy Thomas, and I'm the creator and host of a book podcast called The Stacks. And in addition to the show, I do all sorts of other book related things. I have a live literary series in LA. I write for SheReads.com. I guest appear as like a book expert on NPR. I do an Instagram, a subsec, I don't know. I do any way you can scrape together a life in books besides actually being an author. That's what I do. Michelle Glogovac (01:15.13) When are you gonna have a book coming out then? Traci (she/her) (01:17.128) I don't, I'm not a writer, I'm a reader. I always tell people I'm a reader, I love books as a reader, I don't have aspirations for writing a book. I think that if I ever had a book come out, it would be a collection of essays that other people wrote that I edited or like compiled. don't, I maybe would write the introduction, but I don't have any desire to write a book. Michelle Glogovac (01:43.17) like that because it seems like so many of the book podcasts are all aspiring authors or I mean I wrote a book but it wasn't like it's a non-fiction book and it's really about podcasts so Traci (she/her) (01:48.919) Yeah. Traci (she/her) (01:53.774) Yeah, I mean, I, yeah, I even that sounds horrible to me. Like, I'm just like, I don't want to write a book about, there's nothing I want to write a book about. I'm not going to say that I would never write a book, but I have no current or ever ambitions to be an author. Michelle Glogovac (02:12.452) but I love the way you promote authors. yes. Traci (she/her) (02:14.188) Yes, I love authors. love books. I think there's this idea that if you are in the book space, you have to be an author. that would be very hard for authors to sell books because who's going to read them? Just other authors, right? You need readers. We're important. And I'm sort of just reader champion number one. I love to read. I love to talk about books. And so that's kind of where this all started and it's sort of the heart of the thing. Like even the questions I ask authors on the show are questions that readers want to know. I'm rarely going to ask you about like an author about sentence structure or like craft. I mean, if it comes up, yes, and I'm interested in some of that, but on a very surface level in the same way that like if you watched a movie, you might ask the director about like a lighting choice or something, but only because it's the most obvious lighting choice ever in the history of film. Michelle Glogovac (03:13.028) And I feel like this is where we're very similar, because I want to know the life story behind the author. I want to know the person who's written the book. I want to know what parts of them are in a book. That's the stockish part of me. like, no, give me the details, the gossip, the juicy stuff. Traci (she/her) (03:22.766) Mmm. Traci (she/her) (03:28.894) Yeah, I do love gossip. Gossip is my, it's my favorite thing in the world, even more than books. Gossip I love the most besides maybe like snacks, snacks, gossip, books in that order, I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Michelle Glogovac (03:44.356) I like that. We get along really well. Yeah, I saw the pepper in my ice cream yesterday. Yeah, I need some new friends because no one is delivering ice cream to my house or books, to be frankly. Traci (she/her) (03:51.341) yeah. Yeah, Melissa's very kind. She's a good she's a good friend. I we we exchange books frequently. We have slightly different reading tastes. So I do give her a lot of books. But the ice cream was a total and pleasant surprise. It was really great. Michelle Glogovac (04:09.378) I love it. I delivered some books yesterday, but usually it's only UPS or FedEx who reciprocates to me. Traci (she/her) (04:15.502) Mmm, gotta get new friends. Tell all your friends they're on notice. Yeah, same. Michelle Glogovac (04:18.488) Because I'm a book hoarder. I don't want to share my books. I don't want to give away the books. I am like Oprah with her Tupperware. Traci (she/her) (04:26.664) but how do you have space for all of them? Michelle Glogovac (04:31.738) They're just, behind me and I will just buy more bookshelves, I guess. Traci (she/her) (04:36.236) I mean, I have to get more bookshelves all the time, but even still, it's still too many books. And so I do a thing every year in January, February, where I go through all my shelves. I pull out everything that I know that I don't want anymore. Usually they're the most recent years books that I didn't request and that just showed up at my house. And then I have a party where I invite all my friends over and have snacks. And I put all the books out by category on a table. And I just say, take as many as you want. And the only rule is they cannot bring their own books to the party. And then whatever I don't give away to my friends, then I drive around to the little free libraries in my neighborhood. take some to my actual library for their friends at the library sale, but they won't always take as many as I have. Michelle Glogovac (05:07.556) That's good. Michelle Glogovac (05:22.394) What kind? Because I'm thinking like arcs. Like I get a lot of arcs. Yeah. Traci (she/her) (05:26.448) yeah, a lot of arcs, a lot of arcs, but I also get duplicates sometimes. So like I'll get an arc, which is for people who don't know is an advanced reader copy. It's usually like a paperback version of a new book before it's out. And then when the finished copies come in, I usually get those too. So sometimes it's like, well, I don't need two of these. So that's usually like my friend, Melissa, who's an avid reader, who's read more books than me this year. I'm like, I got an extra of this. Do you want it? And so she usually gets first dibs. And then sometimes I'll ship things out to friends and Michelle Glogovac (05:45.53) Yeah. Traci (she/her) (05:56.216) But yeah, at the end of the year, just call the shelves of everything and get rid of them. Michelle Glogovac (06:02.564) I have a ways to get before I reach your level, before I am Tracy stacked. Traci (she/her) (06:06.478) Well, I just know there's new stuff coming and there's stuff that I don't want. Like I'm like, I'm never going to read this historical fiction romance novel about one of Mussolini's mistresses. Like it's just not, I'm not interested. It showed up. Thank you so much for sending it, but it's not for me. And I keep everything during the year. So anything that comes out in 2024 that is sent to me, I keep until the end of 2024. And then I'll go through and get rid of things because sometimes something's up for an award that I didn't think I wanted, but maybe then I'm like, I want to check it out or it ends up on a list. So I'll keep it. And then January 1st, if I know I don't want it, I'm Yeah, that's right. That's exactly right. Michelle Glogovac (06:45.196) I love it. It's like your cleansing of the year. Okay, I'm gonna have to work on this as my collection gets bigger and bigger. And I'm sure if I have parties and there will be wine involved for sure, then people will want to come. Traci (she/her) (06:52.385) You can do it, Michelle. Traci (she/her) (06:56.64) Yeah. Yeah. And people love new books. Even my friends who barely read, they come and they take like 20 books and then the next year they come and they're like, I can't take any more books. They took so many last year and then they leave with 10. I'm like, great, take them. Michelle Glogovac (07:01.679) Yes. Michelle Glogovac (07:11.47) How did you come about with starting your podcast and starting this huge love of books and like, what started this? Because I love watching everything that you're doing. I love that you've got the sub stack. You're on Instagram. You're doing all of these things to promote books. I love your view on books. I love that you believe that books are political. I say that all the time. So how did this all start? Traci (she/her) (07:33.932) They are. OK, I feel like I tell a story every time people who hear this are probably like enough with the origin story, but here it is. OK, I used to read a lot as a kid. I read a lot in college. I went to college in New York. I lived in New York when I moved to L.A. I sort of stopped reading because I couldn't read on the subway, which is sort of one of my main places of reading when I lived in New York. And then in 2016, so after I'd been in L.A. for about four years, I was like, I'm going to read again. I'm going to read one book a month. in 2016 and I set this goal and I achieved the goal. got to the end of the year. I finished it on like December 29th or something like really close, like really pushed myself to the last possible second and was like, I am a hero. Like this is why people win Nobel prizes for like this kind of work. And then in 2017, I was like, I'm gonna read 13 books this year. Like, because again, I don't know if anyone's ever read more than 12 books, but we're gonna find out. And then. In 2017, I sort of like hit my stride and was like reading a lot and I was posting like little reviews of everything I was reading on my personal Instagram page. And my boss at the time was like, you should start a blog. And I was like, I don't write. I hate writing. I just want to read books. And then in 2017, I read this book that I loved called Blood in the Water, which was about the Attica prison uprising. It won the Pulitzer. It's by Heather Ann Thompson. And I was like, I got to talk to someone about this book. So I was always a podcast listener. started listening to podcasts in like 2010, which is a lot earlier for reference. Serial came out in 2014. So a lot of people didn't even know about podcasts until around then. I was like, let me see if there's a podcast about this book. And there were two. And one was like very pretentious. like smarty people. It wasn't the New Yorker, but it was like the New Yorker. And I cannot find the episode anymore, so I can't tell you exactly who it was, but it had that energy of like very smart, hoity toity. And then the other one was a law podcast, because there was a lot of law in the book. And it just, it wasn't what I wanted. Neither of the shows was doing what I wanted. I wanted to like talk about, I want to hear people talk about the book and be like, my God, I can't believe that happened. This is so crazy. Blah, blah, blah. And Traci (she/her) (09:50.07) So then I was like, that's annoying. And then I kept sort of thinking about it and I was like, I guess I could start a podcast where I talked about the books that I wanted to talk about and the ways that I wanted to talk about with my friends. Because again, at the time there was sort of this like hoity-toity thing, but then there was also this like three ladies in Arkansas drink wine and talk about books. And that's really fun, but that's also not what I wanted. Like I didn't want to just like have a book club like in that way. And I didn't want to read the books that those those shows were reading, which was like a lot of romance or like quote unquote women's fiction or contemporary fiction. And so I just said, I'm gonna start a show. And I got some of my smartest friends who talk about books for work to be my early guests. So like my first guest was a friend of mine named Dallas, and he was an English teacher. My second guest was my now sister-in-law. She was just my brother's girlfriend at the time, but also she's one of my best friends. I knew her first. Michelle Glogovac (10:43.51) you Traci (she/her) (10:44.948) She's a professor of ethnic studies. So she did an episode. had a friend who was a screenwriter do an early episode. So I sort of just like dove in and started it. And that was how it started. it's been, it just kind of took seven years and here we are. Michelle Glogovac (11:02.906) love that though, because people think everything happened overnight. No, it took seven years, but it's a big deal. You were just at the book awards. You have incredible guests. I love the books that you cover too, because they truly make you think. are ones with big issues that they're really, like you said, there still aren't really podcasts that are covering these types of things. Traci (she/her) (11:06.634) yeah. Traci (she/her) (11:14.882) Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Traci (she/her) (11:28.398) Yeah, it's definitely like I think that I found a place for my show and myself that feels like I'm I still love what I do because I'm still doing like reading the things that I would want to be reading, you know, like and in 2021, actually got to have Heather Ann Thompson on the show who wrote the book that sort of started the show. And we did it for book club as well, because it was the 50th anniversary of the Attica Prison Uprising. So like even still Michelle Glogovac (11:41.07) Yeah. Traci (she/her) (11:55.982) like after the show started in 2018, but years later, like that is still sort of the heart of the show. Like the books that I wanna talk about and the ways that I wanna talk about them is still really like the guiding principle of the stacks. Michelle Glogovac (12:09.902) I love that. So how many books are you reading a year now? Traci (she/her) (12:12.558) this year I'm at 131 and we're well, so in 2018, the year I started the show, so after I hit my stride in 2017, the first few months I read, excuse me, the first few months I read just 1111 and then in May I hit my stride and I ended the year with 24 books. And then in 2018, before I started the show, I was reading like six or seven a month. And then by the end of the year, that first year I had read 89. So there was a huge jump. Michelle Glogovac (12:15.864) So just a bit more than 12 or 13. Traci (she/her) (12:42.708) once I sort of like, I mean, that's what I always tell people if they wanna read more, just read, because eventually you'll hit your stride and you'll figure it out and you'll find how much feels reasonable. I think like a lot of people think like reading a book a week sounds impossible, but it's actually pretty reasonable if you make time for reading. I do think reading 130 books a year is a little bit obnoxious and like I understand that this is my job and so like I don't expect people who have other jobs to do that. quite frankly, it's rude to read that many books and the people who read more than me, I'm like, I'm so impressed by you and also like, I hate you, but it's not because I don't believe you. just, like, I don't, it's too many. no, read, I read a mix. So I read probably about 30 % audio and then the rest is with my eyes, but it also depends, like this month, I think I've only finished two books with my eyes and the rest with my ears and I'm probably at seven books this month. Michelle Glogovac (13:26.298) Are we talking just audio books or physical reading? Traci (she/her) (13:41.994) it really depends on what's going on and what kind of other work I have to do. Because the truth is, in the nine to five hours, I rarely read because I'm writing, which I hate to do, as I mentioned, recording episodes, doing other work for the show, social media stuff. So even though books are my job, they are not really in my work hours so much. Michelle Glogovac (14:04.89) I feel that. I even work with authors and I'm still like, I'm literally getting paid to read your book and yet I have to do it outside of normal working hours because there aren't enough time, hours in the day. And it's funny, I remember there was a blog post I did years ago where I was like, I read 35 books in a year. Here's how I did it. And this year it'll be like 70. But I just hit the stride with discovering audio books. Traci (she/her) (14:18.145) Yeah. Traci (she/her) (14:27.128) Yeah. Michelle Glogovac (14:30.906) because I've never been an audiobook lover. And I got to tell you, I got to give you some credit for something you shared the other day was that you were reading and listening to a book at the same time and going back and forth. And I went, there's an idea. Traci (she/her) (14:30.946) Mmm. Traci (she/her) (14:40.076) Mmm. Traci (she/her) (14:43.478) Yeah, yeah, I'll read the same book on multiple things, but not at the not technically at the same time. Like I won't read and listen well, like my eyes won't read the pages while my ears are listening. What I'll do is I'll read like at nighttime before bed, I read off the page. And then if I'm cooking dinner, I'll just jump to that place in the audiobook. Because I do know people who do simultaneously read from the page as they're listening to it. And I think that's really interesting. Michelle Glogovac (15:12.014) Yeah, no, that would not work for me. No. Traci (she/her) (15:14.562) I think it depends on the book and the narrator. I know a lot of people have done it with Toni Morrison novels because she narrates her own novels, but sometimes seeing the words helps them really marinate because the text can be so dense and she's doing so much with language. I've never tried it, so I can't say whether it works or not for me, but I do know there are some people who do that, and that's not what I do. Michelle Glogovac (15:35.33) That makes sense. I listen to the audiobooks on much quicker speed, so I don't know that my eyes could catch up with what my ears are listening to. What has been the biggest lesson or the biggest, what's been like the biggest moment for you in all of this with the podcast, with all of the books you're reading? What's been like the highlight? Traci (she/her) (15:40.066) Yeah. Traci (she/her) (15:44.278) Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Same. I do listen faster. Traci (she/her) (16:01.826) the highlight or like the lesson, because I feel like those are different things. I think the biggest lesson I've learned is that you have to ask for things. There's so many things about the book industry that I've learned in the last two years that I did not know because I was just a reader. I was going to the bookstore, buying books, like whatever, that I've learned. And there's so many things that I still don't know. And I have to literally ask. Michelle Glogovac (16:04.364) Give me both. Yeah, give me both. Traci (she/her) (16:30.456) friends and mentors and be like, is this a thing? Is this possible? Would this person want to come on the show? Who do you know who would be a good fit for this? Like I ask so many for so many things I feel like all the time. And it's just it's a hard lesson to learn, not because it's like difficult. It's not difficult to understand, but it's hard to actually implement. Sometimes I'm just like, I want to do it on my own. I don't want to ask for another favor. I don't want to ask for help, but I don't think I could make the show without. the help of so many people who have said yes to me over the years or said, let me show you how this works or let me introduce you to this person. I think maybe this is a recency bias, but I think one of the biggest highlights was being invited to the National Book Awards. That was a pretty fancy thing. And then I think another highlight. which feels like an even bigger highlight because they're not together anymore is that I had Desus and Mero on the podcast. I don't know if you know them, but they were these two guys who had a TV show and a podcast. And they're just like these hilarious guys from New York. And I love I love their show. And they wrote a book and I got to have them on the show. And they were exactly like what I was hoping they would be. And they were right on time. And they were so kind and so funny and so great. Michelle Glogovac (17:27.566) know. Traci (she/her) (17:47.84) And then like a few, maybe like a year later, they broke up as like partners, business partners. And it was very sad for me because I loved them and I miss them. But also I was like, I got to talk to them when they were like still a thing. yeah, so that's like definitely like a sort of guest highlight. I've had some pretty amazing guests on. So there've been a lot of highlights, but they are particularly in my wheelhouse of like pop culture people that I love. Michelle Glogovac (18:01.454) before it was too late. Michelle Glogovac (18:15.726) I love that. I'm watching all you're doing with Franklin Leonard and The Blacklist because I didn't even know about The Blacklist until recently. Traci (she/her) (18:19.125) Yeah Traci (she/her) (18:22.85) my gosh, that's so funny. I don't do anything with them. It's just worked out that like, I was just, we've become friendly and Franklin is sort of like, he founded The Blacklist, which for people who don't know, it started 20 years ago actually, as a place where people whose scripts didn't get turned into movies. And then I think it moved into television. I think it started just with movies. Michelle Glogovac (18:28.714) Y'all are friends. Traci (she/her) (18:50.562) they made like a database where you could search them and it was called the blacklist. And then every year people would read through them and say, these are the best scripts from this like slush pile. And from that has come many Oscar winning films, including Spotlight, Slumdog Millionaire. I'm pretty sure Juno is from that list as well. Like so many movies you know and love, The King's Speech. And so they recently expanded into fiction and the head of the fiction department segment is Randy, Randy Winston, who has become a friend of mine. And so through Randy joining, I met Franklin and then I've been able to do some fun stuff with them. But I just did an event because they just released their adaptation list, which was the books that Hollywood executives most wanted to see adapted. And we did like a fun little live podcast. and a friend of mine messaged me and said, are you contractually obligated to appear in public with only Franklin Leonard right now? And I was like, because we also did the Sam Sanders show. we've just, I've just been, and Franklin did my show. But no, I don't work for them or work with them. I just happen to be in the right blacklist space at the right time. But now I have to like separate because I don't want people to think that I'm employed by them. Michelle Glogovac (20:12.762) I didn't think you were employed. just thought, y'all getting along and this is cool. And I love that you're bringing more attention to them because like I said, I didn't even know it existed until the book part came into play, which. Traci (she/her) (20:15.852) Yes. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And the book part is great. mean, they're taking, they're giving people access to the literary industry and literary insiders without having to already have an agent or to know an editor. You can upload your stuff. I mean, I think for me, the thing that's most impressive about the Blacklist is that they don't own your work. So if an agent reaches out to you and says, want your manuscript, I want to try to sell it, and you get a book deal, Blacklist doesn't get a single dollar from that. And Franklin was funny because he was like, with movies, sometimes I don't know for years that that's how the thing got made. Like they don't even have to tell the Blacklist that someone reached out about it. So it's very much just like this database, which I think is really cool. think any way we can sort of circumvent institutional sort of exclusion. is good. have benefited as an outsider to the publishing industry from people, like I said, throwing me ropes and helping me sort of scale the walls of the publishing industry in a very un-traditional way. So I'm rooting for anything else that sort of systemically changes that or like really has a scaffold instead of a rope, if you will, with the metaphor. Michelle Glogovac (21:41.176) Yeah, I love that. I also want to talk about what you do with books in prison. Share about that foundation and the work you've done because I think that is so cool and awesome. Traci (she/her) (21:46.412) Mmm. Traci (she/her) (21:52.438) Okay, well, so Reginald Dwayne Betts, who is a poet and author, his poetry collection, Felon, is fantastic. He, I mean, he's like a real genius. He's just like a smart guy. And when he was younger, he committed a crime which had him convicted and he was in prison, I want to say for, I'm gonna make it up. I don't know. I would say somewhere between eight to 15 years, but this is making up, I cannot quite remember. When he came out, he started an organization which is now called Freedom Reads, and they build libraries, physical libraries that go into prisons. And I say physical libraries because part of what they're building is actually these benches that are also bookshelves that swivel, that are circular. So you can have like book club or you can like close them off or turn them, they're very cool artistically, you can Google them. And I've not done anything with them aside from raise money. So I can't take any credit. I try to do fundraisers throughout over the years with the stacks. And a few years back, we raised a lot of money for that organization. But only because Reginald Dwayne Betts is amazing. And he created this organization or this project to get books into prisons. in a way that's not just getting books into prisons, but also creating space for people who are incarcerated to have a reading life, not to just have books, but to have a space to engage with and relax into books in a place that can be so not relaxing, right? Like that he's creating a space for books in a really true and literal way, like a space. He's carving out a space for books in these prisons. That's what we, we raised money, but I can't really like take credit. Michelle Glogovac (23:45.678) love it. You do a lot. No, you get credit because not just raising money, but raising awareness too and making sure that you're a part of these changes that need to happen. I have one friend who formerly incarcerated and he said that they were not allowed to share books in prison. So he'd have to write his number in it and then you couldn't trade, you couldn't say, read this, it was so good. So yeah, I think there's so much that goes on that… Traci (she/her) (23:52.344) Yeah. Traci (she/her) (24:02.446) Mmm. Traci (she/her) (24:10.68) Wow, that's awful. Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's so many great organizations. There's another one, God, I think it's called Project Prisoner Lit, which we also did like a book drive for. They're based in the Bay Area where we just like, I just had people donate books there and they're great too. There's so many rules about the whole thing, but it's just. Michelle Glogovac (24:14.945) we don't know on the outside. Traci (she/her) (24:39.202) Frankly, bullshit, but whatever. I can't change that. yeah, Freedom Reads is amazing. If you're looking for somewhere to donate money, I highly suggest Freedom Reads. Michelle Glogovac (24:50.54) And we have to give a shout out to the Bay Area because I'm in San Jose and I know you're from Oakland. Traci (she/her) (24:53.774) my Mr. Stacks is from Los Altos. Yeah. amazing. Got it. Nice. I love this. Michelle Glogovac (24:58.416) okay. My husband grew up in Saratoga and we are in San Jose. So yeah, I love it. And Mr. Stacks, I love it. There's a Mr. Stacks and there's little mini stacks who are identical twins. So you have your hands full. I love it. And you're reading to them. I was reading one of the interviews that you did where you were reading Charlotte's Web with them. Traci (she/her) (25:06.242) Yeah Yes. Yep. Yep, I sure do. Traci (she/her) (25:21.546) Yeah, I started reading. We never finished. They kind of got over it. They're a little young. They're almost five and they were really liking listening to like stories. And we read this Trevor, this new Trevor Noah book called Into the Uncut Grass. And it's like four chapters, but there weren't like a ton of pictures and they were really into it. So I was like, okay, let's try doing another chapter book, like a chapter night. But I think that Charlotte's Web is a little bit too much text and not enough pictures still. Michelle Glogovac (25:51.183) Yeah. Traci (she/her) (25:51.478) So they'll be read every night. They love their picture books. And I'm really anxious about ruining reading for them. So I try, if they're like not into it, I'm like, me neither. I hate books. What's a book? Ew, what's that? Like, let's not do this. This is awful. Because I don't want them to feel pressured by me in the way that kids often like rebel against whatever their parents do. So they love books. Michelle Glogovac (26:18.639) Mm-hmm. Traci (she/her) (26:20.974) Like, I went to the library the other day and I surprised them with some books that I brought home and they were like, where are the books? Where are the books? I was like, okay, can you eat your broccoli and then we'll talk about the books, okay? Relax. Michelle Glogovac (26:34.356) and they're gonna figure out what they love to read too. Traci (she/her) (26:36.438) Yeah, exactly. So I just try to be really like hands off as far as my opinion about what they're reading. And I try to really follow their leads. Like I tried to introduce Charlotte's Web. We got to about chapter four. It's it'll still be there. You know, it's not going anywhere. Yeah. Yeah. No, I don't think of all the books being banned. Charlotte's Web is not. I don't think that one's on the chopping chopping block anytime soon. Michelle Glogovac (26:52.642) Yeah, yeah, it's not going anywhere, at least not in California. Michelle Glogovac (27:03.347) Hopefully not, yeah, until someone goes more batshit crazy. Traci (she/her) (27:07.146) I recommend people reread it. I actually think that Charlotte's Web is a great feminist text. I reread it a few years ago and was like, this is a book that is saying a lot about women and women's work. And I was very surprised by how important that I thought it was. I then the next year read Stuart Little also by E.B. White and I was like, this is trash. This is horrible. I can't believe I read this as a kid and loved it. I love Stuart Little as a kid. If you reread it as an adult, you'll be like, what kind of drugs are 10 year olds on? Like it's so, it's so weird. It's like a short story collection maybe. It's so bizarre and it does not have any of the. clarity or messaging of Charlotte's Web and I was very shocked by it because of how much I loved my reread of Charlotte's Web. Michelle Glogovac (28:04.068) We will have to reread Charlotte's Web because we haven't tackled it. We're doing the Baby Sitters Club books right now. Yeah. And then we did revisit some Ramona and Beezus, which I'm surprised, like looking back now that I'm a parent and you know what's right and wrong and there's like fat shaming in it. I'm going, I'm... Traci (she/her) (28:09.038) Okay, iconic. Traci (she/her) (28:14.56) I never did the Ramona thing. Traci (she/her) (28:21.272) Mm-hmm. Traci (she/her) (28:25.462) yeah. I mean, it's in all those books. mean, all this is a thing that I feel like we have not figured out as as like adults and humans is like, how are we going to engage with the older texts? Because I don't think we can throw them away. Like, I don't think that that's right. But I also don't think that we're reading them appropriately and like bringing all of what we know to the text. in a way that is meaningful or like reading them through a lens of a person that knows better. I think like the thing is either don't read it or just be like, well, this was old and everybody was fat phobic. Because I don't think that like that's necessarily true too. But I have been thinking a lot about like, how are how are we supposed to read these books and like what what is within our ability and range and like how do we supplement and all that stuff. So I don't know. I don't know if you have an answer, but that's what I've been thinking about. Michelle Glogovac (29:27.066) The only thing is, I mean, we read aloud. So as we read sections like that, then we take a pause and we talk about it. My kids are eight and nine. So, you know, yeah, we don't say that, do we? And here's why and how it can make somebody feel. And we just kind of move on. And we do talk about, you know, the difference in what we know today versus 20, 30 years ago and what people wrote and how it was OK. That's the only way that I know is a Traci (she/her) (29:34.838) Yeah. Okay. Traci (she/her) (29:48.055) Yeah. Traci (she/her) (29:53.358) Yeah. Michelle Glogovac (29:56.512) mom to approach it, but we still read it, you know? Traci (she/her) (29:57.91) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I just think about that a lot of like, is that like, Is that the way to do it? Because that's what my instincts would say is just to pause and talk about it. But I think about is there supplemental text? Or is the next book you read a book that combats that or shows why that's bad? And then you do comparative literature class at bedtime. I don't know. Michelle Glogovac (30:29.081) Yeah. Traci (she/her) (30:33.228) I don't have an answer. It's just something that is on my mind, even not just with my kids, but also when I read stuff, like there's something like there's some authors I really want to get to that I know are racist. And I'm just like, how am going to approach this? Like, you know, like, do I want to read it? Do I just skip it? Do I read other criticism around, you know, so just a thought. Michelle Glogovac (30:48.729) Yeah. Michelle Glogovac (30:57.134) And I think when you're picking out the books for your kids to read, and we do do that where we're reading different types all the time, or we're not going to read just the Ramona series and be done with that, there will be other ones that will teach us a lesson and that sort of a thing that are in between. yeah, think little lessons to teach the kids in between, I like it. Don't tell my kids that I'm teaching them lessons though. Traci (she/her) (31:06.221) Yeah. Traci (she/her) (31:11.946) Yeah. Yeah. Traci (she/her) (31:17.602) Yeah. No, no, no. They're not listening. They don't listen anyways. They're not learning anything. Michelle Glogovac (31:25.75) but they watch on Spotify. No, they will, they'll be like, so we see that we can find you on Spotify and YouTube now. Occasionally, yes. Yeah, they have, I'm the Google queen and they have figured out the Google function and they're like, so we see your picture here. What were you doing with this? here's where you were interviewed. Yeah, just wait. Yeah, the curse of the iPad. Traci (she/her) (31:31.352) they watch your podcast? Hey, guys! Eh. Traci (she/her) (31:47.554) That's so funny. I love that. That's awesome. Michelle Glogovac (31:54.74) You're amazing. I feel like we could just keep talking and talking. haven't even looked down at the time and I'm like, we're over half an hour. We've done awesome. Traci (she/her) (31:58.862) I talk so much. I know. I know. I'm sorry. Michelle Glogovac (32:06.434) No, that's why we're good podcast hosts, because we can just keep going. We've never even met and here we are just like, yeah, chatty Cathy's. Where can everybody find you and listen to the stacks everywhere? Traci (she/her) (32:11.766) Yeah, just gabbing. Yeah. Traci (she/her) (32:18.734) Do you know this is my least favorite question, Michelle, because I'm like, I just, never know what to say because I feel like everybody knows how to Google. You can find me wherever you get your podcasts. The show is called The Stacks. And I also hate it because I have so many things that I'm like, what thing do I plug? So the show first and foremost, The Stacks, wherever you get your podcasts. And then I think the Instagram is probably the next best place because I usually share everything I'm doing over on Instagram. And my Instagram is The Stacks Pod. It's at the Stacks pod. But I have a website, thestackspodcast.com. I have a sub stack. It's called Unstacked. Michelle Glogovac (32:56.878) And you can say, you gotta pay, go pay, do the paid subscription to Substack because you get more. Yeah. Traci (she/her) (33:00.192) Yeah, because that's when I talk shit. I talk shit in the paid subscription. I don't I don't talk shit as much in the regular you have to get behind the paywall to really hear me bitch about people I hate. And I do do that aggressively. So if you like shit talk if you like me, like snacks, gossip, and then books, the sub stack is the place for you. Yeah, yeah. I haven't I haven't had as much shit to talk recently. But in the new year, I'm sure I'll be back. Michelle Glogovac (33:04.62) It's fun. Michelle Glogovac (33:20.676) I'm a proud paying member. Traci (she/her) (33:29.432) with the vengeance. get so burnt out by the end of the year that I'm just like doing the substack like, everything's great. I'm exhausted. Hope you're having a good day. Peppermint ice cream. But in January, I'll be ready to burn bridges. Don't you worry. Thank you. Michelle Glogovac (33:39.197) Ha ha! Michelle Glogovac (33:46.096) Thank you so much, Tracy, for coming on.