Michelle Glogovac (00:01.144) Hi Gemma. You have say more than hi so everybody can hear your adorable accent. Can you introduce yourself to everyone please? Gemma Tizzard (00:02.824) Hi. thank you. Sure, I'm Gemma Tizard and I am the author of Grace of the Empire State, which is a historical fiction novel, which is out on January 28th, set in New York in 1930. And it's about a young woman who's thrown into like an extraordinary circumstance where she has to take her twin brother's place working on the construction of the Empire State building to save their family. And it's a book that I've been working on for many years. So I'm really excited for it to finally be heading out into the world for people to read and meet Grace. Michelle Glogovac (00:41.942) And today is, it's going, this is going live on your pub day. So congratulations, today is pub day. We are pretending today is pub day so everyone can go out and buy it today. Gemma Tizzard (00:46.068) Amazing. Yeah, there you go. Now you can really go read it. Michelle Glogovac (00:55.082) It was so good. I've read some historical fiction, but I wouldn't say that's the genre that I reach for all the time. And yet, having been to the Empire State Building, I love New York, and then to read this, my stomach was in knots. And thinking of how they're going up on this steel, they're building it, it was incredible. So I want to first know what kind of research did you do to get it and how accurate was this book? Gemma Tizzard (01:30.812) And so much research, honestly. I researched it for years before I even started writing anything. So I think I've read maybe 10 different books about the construction of the Empire State Building alone. Because you kind of, guess with the research itself, if you think about the construction of a building, if you look at your book that way, that's the foundations of your book and it needs to be strong to build on. So I needed to do the research. I needed to understand, you know, if you're going to write a book that's about constructing the Empire State Building, you need to know how it's done. So I had to read a lot of books, I watched any documentaries I could find. And when you start hearing the same thing four or five times, then you can be fairly confident that that is how it happened and that is what they did. So I kind of did all of that for probably about three years, really, just making notes and understanding it so that I felt like I could do the job, I guess. I mean, I wouldn't because I'm terrified of heights, but I felt like I could if I had to, if someone said to me, how did they do it? I knew the process, I knew how it would all work, how everything fit together, huge amount of things that didn't even make it into the book just so that I could make it feel as real as possible. Michelle Glogovac (02:41.152) And what drew you to this time period and to the Empire State Building? Because obviously anybody who's listening can tell you're not from New York. Gemma Tizzard (02:50.194) I'm not. not. I've actually only been to New York once. Yeah, it was about a decade ago. So and I did go to the Empire State Building, but that was way before the book was written. But yeah, I have a degree in American Studies. That's what I did at university. And we did a lot of history and we did a lot of learning about the Great Depression. And this was a few years ago. Michelle Glogovac (02:54.03) I love this. Gemma Tizzard (03:18.75) things have probably moved on a little bit but it was very male focused everything that we were learning about and I just kept thinking like where were the women what were they doing and so I tried to play with that a little bit and thought of something that would be really male focused construction and then what was being built at that time period and when I found out that the Empire State Building was was built in like 1930 it all just kind of came together perfectly it was the right time period it was the right building I knew that there would be the possibility to find out about it. It's one of the most iconic buildings in the world. knew that other people, it would have captured other people's attention before me. So I knew that I would be able to do that research and find out how it happened. And I thought, how do I get a woman up there? That was the question. I really wanted to do that. Michelle Glogovac (04:07.982) love it. I love it. was so entertaining. And the fact that it is historical fiction, that you know that you kind of feel like you're getting smart as you're reading it. You get to have that indulgence of, I'm going to go read my novel. but I'm learning at the same time about history. And so, yes, it's like a school book that we really should have more of. Gemma Tizzard (04:18.356) It smells great. Gemma Tizzard (04:34.132) That's great to hear. I I hope that there's going to be people who know far more about it than me. So I hope that I'm not going to get a lot of letters of people going, you've got this wrong, you've got this wrong. I did my very best to make it as accurate as possible. Obviously, you want the story to be exciting. So you kind of take a few liberties here and there. But generally, the actual process of how they built the building is correct as far as I know, as far as I could get it as close as possible. Michelle Glogovac (05:00.088) loved, and I think I said this in one of the posts I did about the book, was that this is really a badass heroine. And yet all the women that are in your story are all badasses. They're all strong women who are doing whatever it takes, not just to get themselves ahead, but to truly get their families ahead. And so I loved it. Talk to me more about that and how you made sure that every woman in this book is just an ass kicker. Gemma Tizzard (05:29.62) I'm really glad you said that. That was kind of the plan. thought, you know, what? It was such a difficult time for so many people. And I think, you know, something that resonates, I think still today is that women do a lot of unnoticed work, you know, a lot of emotional labor, a lot of like keeping a house and family together. But they also, you know, had to go out and work and earn money and they didn't have as many opportunities to do that. So I wanted to reflect all the different ways that women would have been living their lives then. So, you know, the the choices they had to make, know, marrying for money rather than love or, you know, making difficult decisions because they had to earn money. And, you know, that's really what Grace is doing. Grace doesn't really want to go up and work as a riveter. You know, that's not a dream of hers. know, exactly. You know, it was a question of like, what was she willing to do, you know, the sacrifices that she would make for the people that she loved and she would do it for them and to keep them safe and to keep her younger sister with a roof over her head. Michelle Glogovac (06:11.502) Nobody does, the men didn't even want to. Gemma Tizzard (06:28.882) Yeah, was lot of, know, what were these women willing to do? And the answer was whatever it takes. Michelle Glogovac (06:36.682) and it showed through because there's some scary moments in the book that we don't know if Grace is going to make it or not. And that's all we're going to say about it because you have to go buy the book to find out. But there are moments where there's a lot that you're going, what's going to happen to this character? And will they pull through here? And there's a lot of wondering and suspense that truly did happen. It's not a far-fetched book by any means. because this is what people went through. Gemma Tizzard (07:09.182) Yeah, people were really, you know, was desperate times and, you know, not everybody made it. I think, you know, not just women, like everybody, you know, there were a lot of casualties at the time. It was tough for everybody. And so, yeah, I think it had to make it realistic. is everybody going to make it through, you know, and for it to be a realistic story? Maybe, maybe, maybe not. Michelle Glogovac (07:31.82) What's drawn you to American Studies? I'm curious. Gemma Tizzard (07:35.144) I think, wow, I think it was when I when I was off to university, I kind of I was tempted to do English. Obviously, I'm a writer. I love reading. I love writing. But the syllabus was a lot of things I'd already covered at school. And I wanted to learn something different. And American studies was such a broad subject. You could learn about history and politics and literature of America. And that's something that we didn't learn at school. Like we didn't know. I was like, you know, America has such a big influence on the whole world. and everything that we kind of consume. And so I just wanted to know more. It was more about just like, I just hungry for knowledge. I love facts. I wanted to understand and learn about things I didn't know. And America is such an interesting country because your history is like not that long compared to like us in the UK where you just like, it would be impossible to kind of hold it all in your head. You can kind of really track. Michelle Glogovac (08:23.328) Yeah. Gemma Tizzard (08:30.598) America's history, like the founding of the country through and how quickly everything changed, you know, and my particular interest is like the 20th century and how fast everything accelerated and people's lives changed. And I just found it really fascinating and I still do. So that's where a lot of my writing kind of takes me. Michelle Glogovac (08:47.264) Especially since we seem to be reversing backwards anyway. Yeah, we're going to relive history so you can just write it in real time, apparently. Hopefully not. Gemma Tizzard (08:50.548) I am. Yeah. I mean, there is some real kind of things there, like with the book. I mean, it's nearly a hundred years ago that I was writing about, but things still like resonate, don't they today? There are things in that book that we haven't moved that far forward on some of those things. Michelle Glogovac (09:12.45) Yeah, one that is sticking out to me right now is that they waiting to do we bring the child to the hospital because it's so expensive or do we try to just nurse her back to health at home? Those are things that are happening today as we see. I mean, it's very present today. Gemma Tizzard (09:23.646) Yeah. Gemma Tizzard (09:28.564) Yeah, it's really tough decisions, know, and people are struggling financially and like, you know, there are difficult decisions to be made and people are having to have three, four jobs and, you know, those sort of things are still happening now. Michelle Glogovac (09:41.558) What is it? I want to know what else do you do? us the gem of the human being story because I know you have a job outside of writing because you've just come home from it. And I'm like, I want to stalk you more and get to know you more. What is it that you do outside of writing? Gemma Tizzard (09:49.396) You're welcome. Gemma Tizzard (09:52.926) Yes. Gemma Tizzard (10:00.596) So I'm a marketing manager and I work in a shopping centre, so a shopping mall. So I'm responsible for all of sort of like the events that happen. So Christmas events, Easter events, know, things that bring in families and kids and, you know, just making sure that people know we've got new stores opening and like lots of really like fun, interesting stuff. So that's what I do during the day and then I come home and brighten the evening. Michelle Glogovac (10:23.278) So now you need an event just for your book at the shopping mall. Because everyone needs to know, what is this like for you since you're in the UK, the book is coming out in America? What is that like? Because I've interviewed Emma Gray, who's in Australia, and she's had both. A release will go in Australia, and then the release is here, and she comes over here. What is that like for you, especially because we just talked about you having this job, and it's coinciding with the launch? Gemma Tizzard (10:25.512) I mean, maybe. Gemma Tizzard (10:52.788) It is, yeah. So my book's out at the same time in the UK and America. So I'm kind of doing kind of both at once. And it's very surreal, I guess, to know that even though the book is set in America and it's about America, to know that there's interest in America. When I got the deal in America was such a huge, huge moment for me as like a debut kind of British writer. You don't necessarily expect that that's going to happen. And then... And then it's just, it's kind of, it's so exciting, but it feels like it's happening to someone else, to be honest. I have, hasn't quite sunk in yet, that this is all real and that there's going be people who can walk into a store and buy the book. It's still a very strange experience. Michelle Glogovac (11:38.775) I love it. You're gonna have to get used to it. So you got the deal in the UK before the US happened? Gemma Tizzard (11:47.174) Yes, yes. So my first deal was in Germany and then I got my UK deal and then my US deal followed that. So yeah, it was like three like amazing moments all quite close together within a couple of months. But yes, it's very exciting. Michelle Glogovac (12:02.242) That's very exciting. The phone just keeps ringing with additional deals. Yes, please. So this, and how long did it take you? said that you did the research for like three years to do this book. How long was the total writing? Gemma Tizzard (12:14.856) Yeah. Gemma Tizzard (12:18.42) people always find this crazy but I wrote the actual book, the first draft in six weeks. Exactly and that's why I do it you know so I want to be particularly with historical fiction because you know otherwise you're stopping every two minutes because you can't write anything without checking you know it's like if I was writing the morning routine of a contemporary woman like I could do that because it probably Michelle Glogovac (12:27.564) That makes up for the three years of research. Gemma Tizzard (12:47.668) pretty similar to mine. But if we're talking about 1930, you've got a handful of questions you need to answer to even get someone out of the door. Like, would they have had a bathroom or would it have been shared? You know, what food would they have had because they don't have a refrigerator? You know, what would she have had for breakfast? What would she wear? What shoes would she wear? What public transport was available? So I needed to kind of feel like I... knew all those answers because otherwise it would have taken me out of the writing too much to keep stopping to look things up and I didn't want like a manuscript littered with like find this out, add this detail. So I did all of the research first so that I could just sit down and go and get the draft out to keep kind of the tone, the consistency and keep the story flowing and that just works for me. People think I'm crazy but it works for me and like six weeks, yeah. Michelle Glogovac (13:33.016) Six weeks is amazing. I don't think I've had any author come on and say, I did it in six weeks. That's amazing. That means that you need to belt more out. Gemma Tizzard (13:44.404) Well, Book Two's done! Michelle Glogovac (13:47.918) Yay. What time period are you looking at for that one? Gemma Tizzard (13:52.084) So that one is set in 1942 in Boston. So we've moved forward a decade, we've moved to a different city. It's another historical moment in time, more strong women. So yeah, so that's kind of where I'm going. I like that idea of moving through the 20th century, looking at these women, looking at what they were doing at these points in history. Michelle Glogovac (14:15.554) love this. can't wait for that one. I did read that you wrote rom-coms too. Gemma Tizzard (14:20.916) Yes, so that's where I kind of started with my writing and I've written maybe four or five, none of them have been published, but that was kind of how I got into writing and as I say contemporary is kind of, it's easier in a way because you understand it, you know what's happening. But it was surprising to me that I didn't do historical fiction earlier because I just love that, I love the research process. This is my first like stab at historical. Michelle Glogovac (14:35.918) Mm-hmm. Gemma Tizzard (14:48.05) And I just enjoyed it so much that now I'm kind of doing both, but concentrating for now on historical because it is a lot of work. The research takes up a lot of time. Michelle Glogovac (14:58.584) So for this next one that'll be based in Boston, how long did it take you to do that research? Another three years or less? Gemma Tizzard (15:05.364) Slightly less because it was a more, I don't know how much I can say about it, but it's a very sort of defined event. So it's less, the construction of a building takes months. This is about something that happens over one night. So it took less time. So you still have to do the research around what the city looked like at that time and what people were wearing and all of those things. But the actual event research took less time. So I'd say probably about a year. Michelle Glogovac (15:15.383) Okay. Gemma Tizzard (15:34.92) this time, so getting quicker. Michelle Glogovac (15:38.112) And then how long did it take another six weeks to write it? man. Gemma Tizzard (15:40.86) Yeah, yeah, I'm still, I'm still, I'm still editing it. The editing takes ages. Editing is the hard work, but the first draft, I love writing the first draft and I just try and do it when I've got blocks of time to just sit and like just go and write every day. Michelle Glogovac (15:55.374) That's amazing. I need to make blocks of time and yet I'm not very good at it. And I'll be like, I've got 10 minutes here and then I'll get on a roll and then I have to stop because there's something else going on. Yeah, six weeks. You must just like lock yourself in. You're like, that's it. Gemma Tizzard (15:58.897) You Gemma Tizzard (16:05.222) Yeah. Gemma Tizzard (16:11.944) Pretty much, but I have to know that I'm really ready to start and I have to really, like, I'll want to start and I won't let myself until like you kind of build up kind of the energy for it and then you just, and I just go and then like, I just won't want to stop until it's done. So yeah, it's not gonna work for everybody and everybody's lifestyles and I have to really kind of like carve out that time. But that's a- For me, that's how I kind of stay in the story and make sure that I just keep going till I get to the end. I just want to get it out of my head and onto a page. Michelle Glogovac (16:43.062) I feel like before we started the recording, you said that some of your coworkers didn't know that you'd even written a book. It's kind of a big deal. You've got three different countries have given you deals. It's a big book that's coming out. I feel like you have a secret life. Gemma Tizzard (16:49.39) No. Gemma Tizzard (17:01.588) It does feel a little bit like that. I think because the deal, I got the deal sort of in 2023. So I've had to wait like nearly two years for the book to come out and it's such an exciting thing, but you can't be excited for two years. Like you can't sustain it. You have to kind of sometimes go back to normal life. So having that where I'm kind of somewhere else, where I'm sort of marketing manager Gemma rather than like writer Gemma, like helps me kind of balance that because otherwise you just kind of. I'd be a nervous wreck, think, like waiting for two years for the book to come out. So I quite like having the distraction where I can go and do something else. But yeah, I definitely need to get better at telling people about it. Michelle Glogovac (17:42.882) I just think it's funny. feel like there's like two sides of you that those who know you are like, wait, what? You've got a big book coming out too? Hmm. What else do you do that we don't know about? Gemma Tizzard (17:46.772) You Gemma Tizzard (17:53.844) Two lives is enough. Michelle Glogovac (17:58.126) I love that. Are you coming over here to promote the book? And you have to go to New York. mean… Gemma Tizzard (18:06.676) Yeah, I really, really hope so. Yeah, early next year I'm hoping to get out, definitely. Yeah, it'll only be my second trip to New York. I don't know if we should tell people that, they might lose confidence in the book and that I knew what I was talking about. I promise you guys, I worked really hard to make sure that it was as realistic as possible. Michelle Glogovac (18:10.966) Yes. Michelle Glogovac (18:15.074) which is so funny. Michelle Glogovac (18:25.1) I will vouch for you having read it, but now you need to go on the Empire State Building with your book and a whole photo op up there. Yeah, they should do something for you. You're promoting it really. Gemma Tizzard (18:30.268) Yeah, that'd be great. Yeah. Yeah, and I think it makes a lot of people think about it differently. think a lot of people have been on holiday and have been there and have been to the observation deck and things and actually probably never thought for a second about the people who made that building and all the buildings really. It's not really something that we think about that much and how it was done and lack of health and safety and how dangerous it was and all of those things that are just crazy. There was a photographer, Lewis Hine, who took a lot of photographs of the construction. So he was doing everything the workers were doing. They were swinging it out on instrument buckets and things like take the photos. And that's where a lot of a lot of the detail came from that I had them sort of plastered on the walls so that they gave a real sense of like the danger and the height and all of those things that I was trying to kind of capture on the page. Michelle Glogovac (19:25.89) And you did it beautifully because as we go through the book, they keep mastering the stories. They finish a story and they move up floors stories and they're getting so high that I'm like, and I feel like it's all open and windy. They talk about the wind and if you've been outside on the Empire State Building, you will feel the wind. And I mean, I've also been to Chicago to what was the Sears Tower and you can stand on the glass platform and see down. And so if you're thinking Empire State Building even bigger, that's really freaky. Gemma Tizzard (19:56.774) Yeah, I've seen that, yeah. Gemma Tizzard (20:05.306) It is terrifying and that I did when I was submitting the book to agents, there was one agent who read the premise and said, sounds great, but not for me. I'm scared of heights. I just, I would hate it. I don't even want to read it. Good luck. Michelle Glogovac (20:21.164) Which is so sad, funny and yet that person missed out, so too bad. Gemma Tizzard (20:26.516) I didn't want to give her nightmares though, to be fair. Michelle Glogovac (20:31.914) It's – the way you wrote it was so it's so great because you do feel that knot in your stomach. So yeah, you did a great job capturing it. And I wouldn't say that I like – I read it before bed. There's certain books that I'll read before bed, certain ones that I won't. Like nonfiction is not a before bed read. Usually they're more boring and I want something that I can escape to. And this one I was like, well, do I read it before bed? Because… Gemma Tizzard (20:39.528) Great. Thank you. Gemma Tizzard (20:55.186) Yeah, I agree. Michelle Glogovac (21:02.422) I don't know what floor we're on. Like I don't want to be falling in my dreams. yeah. So what is next for you Gemma? You've got this. The next book is coming, but. Gemma Tizzard (21:02.644) It's not exactly relaxing, is it? Gemma Tizzard (21:09.203) Yeah. Gemma Tizzard (21:18.696) Yeah, so I am editing book two and then I have an idea for book three. So I've started some research and that will be in the 1950s. So moving forward again. But yeah, it's at this stage at the moment where there's a couple of ideas, I really have to lock in on one because of amount of research involved. can't, as much as I would be tempted to research them both, if I'm only going to up writing one, I kind of need to decide which direction we're going in. But yeah, I think I'm just really enjoying the writing and I really, really hope that people will respond to it and grace and kind of come on this journey with me through the 20th century of America, seeing what women were up to. Michelle Glogovac (22:02.242) love it. And we have to. As an American, you should know how the Empire State Building was made. You should know what went on during the Great Depression to get to witness this in an entertaining type of way that lets you escape but also lets you see what happened. I love it. It's a great way to tell a story and you've captured it so beautifully. And I think it's even better that you're not an American. You did this for us. So thank you for that. Gemma Tizzard (22:31.003) Michelle Glogovac (22:31.138) I mean, that's amazing. And I hope that people grasp that, that a non-American is writing about the history of America and what our people did to build this country and to build these iconic buildings and survive. That's amazing. Gemma Tizzard (22:48.946) It's really odd thing because sometimes, you know, I was asking myself the question, like, do I have any right to write this book because I'm not American, it's not my story. But then I also think sometimes it's easier from an outside perspective. Like when you live in a country, it's easier to see all the things that are wrong with it. And I think sometimes it takes an outside view to go, actually, this is amazing. And look at this and look when this happens and kind of just point out all the positives and all the great things. So it's nice to be able to do that. Michelle Glogovac (23:18.55) love that. I appreciate it so much. It's a treat to get to experience this in a different way and to get your perspective on it. I love the family and you bring in the Italians and you bring in the Irish families because that's truly what our country was based on, is based on. was all of these different immigrants coming in, these families, and then you get to see them all melding together. Yeah, it's beautiful. I love the way you wrote it. I really enjoyed the book and it's an absolute gift to our country. Gemma Tizzard (23:54.516) Thank you so much. I always find that history, it can be a bit dry. And if you try and make it entertaining and fun, I mean, if you look at the success of Hamilton, I mean, I don't think anybody was that interested in that story necessarily until it was set to rap music and then it's all over the world and people, they take it in and they understand more. And so I think there's a bit of that as well. It's like, how can we make, the construction of a building doesn't really sound like. Michelle Glogovac (24:03.522) Yes. Gemma Tizzard (24:22.308) the sort of topic that you could write a novel about. So it's like, how do you make that exciting? How do you make it something that people want to read and be interested in and the characters and, you know, just make it come alive a bit and also just sort of honour the people because it was dangerous and people did die, you know, and there's a line in the book, one of the characters says, we're gifting this view to the world. And that is what those people did. Michelle Glogovac (24:42.99) Yes, yes. And I love that it's not just about history, it's not about badass women. There's also this huge friendship tie that is in there. There is the tie of family that is so big. And then we do get some love stories intertwined. So you get some romance too. There's literally something for everyone tied into the book. Gemma Tizzard (25:07.912) I think as well because it's set in such a difficult time and the thing that gets people through a difficult time is the people around them. I think in any situation. So it's about the relationships and like you say, family relationships, romantic relationships, friendships. Those are the things that kind of endured, know, people are still falling in love even if they're in the most difficult situations and that's kind of a beautiful thing and I kind of wanted a bit of that in there as well. Michelle Glogovac (25:31.502) Yes, I have to. Yeah, I liked the end. I liked you came together. It made me very happy because as you read it, you'll go, will they? Won't they? I really hope that there's going to be a happy ending, you know, with certain couples. They will remain nameless. Go read the book. But yeah, it's joyful and it made me very happy. Gemma Tizzard (25:37.076) Hahaha. Gemma Tizzard (25:51.119) Hahaha. Gemma Tizzard (25:56.544) it. I'm glad. Yeah, I think, you know, some of them went through a really rough time in this book. I think I deserve to give them a happy ending. Michelle Glogovac (26:01.964) Yes. Yes, they deserved it. They got through a lot. Jemma, where can everyone find you? Where can they buy the book that is out today? Gemma Tizzard (26:12.756) I think the book is available online at all like retailers and you can find me on Instagram at Gemma underscore Tizza. Michelle Glogovac (26:22.606) Thank you so much. Thank you for joining me today and thank you for gifting us this book. It's incredible. I loved it. Gemma Tizzard (26:31.045) thank you so much. It's been so lovely to talk to you.