Michelle Glogovac (00:01.198) Hi, Sash. I'm so glad that I got to figure out your name before we started. Sash Bischoff (00:02.774) I am so excited to be talking with you. This is great. Michelle Glogovac (00:11.168) the thrill is mine, honestly, and that we connected so quickly and I'm like, yay, we're here now. This is, I'm so excited. Can you introduce yourself to everyone, please? Sash Bischoff (00:17.204) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes, I am Sash Bischoff and I am the author of Sweet Fury, which came out yesterday, January 7th. Michelle Glogovac (00:29.812) It is incredible. It's a lot of F. Scott Fitzgerald. So if you've read F. Scott Fitzgerald, then you will really be in love with this. It made me want to go back and read. And I was trying to rack my brain. like in high school, I was in honors English, AP English. I'm like, did we read any of his work? And I can't remember, but you make me want to go read it. Yeah, I'm like, I really don't remember. Sash Bischoff (00:34.708) Mm-hmm. Sash Bischoff (00:45.696) Mm-hmm. Sash Bischoff (00:50.792) Wow, yeah. Did you read Gatsby at some point? Michelle Glogovac (00:57.348) don't think so. I really don't. So you eat Sash Bischoff (00:58.832) interesting. I feel like you're the first person I met who didn't hack Dorie Gatsby in high school. Michelle Glogovac (01:06.144) Maybe so. I feel like now you should probably get some royalties for whoever is now going to go seek out his work. Sash Bischoff (01:13.6) I mean, please, I would be delighted. I'll take it. Michelle Glogovac (01:19.8) Let's start off with that. What is your like of his work and why did that tie in so closely to your book? Sash Bischoff (01:30.438) Well, I actually read Gatsby in high school, but I had never read any of his other books. I began writing this book with two ideas. I knew that I wanted to tell a story about a relationship between an actress and her therapist through the therapy notes. And then I knew that they final twisted the book. So I had a beginning and an ending, but I didn't know how to get from A to Z. And I submitted the first draft to my writer's group. And when I did, this amazing novelist and my friend, Blair Hurley, said, you know, the themes you're exploring and the characters are reminiscent of Tender as the Knight. They're making a film in this book. What if it's an adaptation of Tender? And so she was the one who gave me the idea. And so I went home and I... read Tender as Knight and thought, my gosh, this is a genius suggestion. And so then I went down this rabbit hole where I read literally everything that Fitzgerald ever wrote and almost every book that's ever been written about him. And that's when I realized, my book should not just be in conversation with Tender. It should be in conversation with his works as a whole. Yeah. Michelle Glogovac (02:47.834) Amazing. It was so, it's like historical fiction plays out by, you know, looking at his work and then bringing it to light today. It was, it was very reminiscent of, you know, Hollywood and what we see with actors and I loved it. I absolutely loved it. What did you do before this, before you wrote this incredible novel? This is your debut, right? Sash Bischoff (02:57.91) Yeah. Sash Bischoff (03:02.909) Yeah. Sash Bischoff (03:06.742) Thank you. Sash Bischoff (03:11.158) Yeah, so I spent my entire life in theater. I grew up as an actor. I started acting when I was six. I was extremely shy as a little kid and was that kid who, you know, when a stranger would bend down to say hi, I would bury my face in my mom's thigh and like wouldn't look at them. and my mom was like, this is gonna stop. So she's like theater. And so she had me audition for a show and I got in and I was in musical and I was in the ensemble and then the show ended and my mom was like, great, you're like moving on. And I said, no, this is my passion. And so I began acting professionally from the age of six and I was actually in regional theater, as well as community theater and children's theater. And then in high school, you know, I grew up in San Diego and I would be driving up to LA regularly after school to audition for film and TV and meet with agents and, you know, go to classes. And I got into directing in high school a bit as well. And then when it came time to choose colleges, I was sort of torn because I was so fixated on being an actor. And so I thought, well, to do that, I should really go the conservatory route. But at the same time, I had been writing my entire life. So I wrote my first little novel when I was seven for fun. And was like, you know, I also really want to have a strong academic education. And ultimately ended up choosing Princeton because the creative writing department is just so amazing there. And I continued writing through college, but I was really focused on theater and directed more and more. By the end of college, I thought, you know, for a number of reasons, but I thought, you know, I think I want to pursue a career as a director full time and sort of press pause on acting. And so ever since I graduated in 2009, I have been working in New York professionally as a director. And I was working my way up the ladder and was working regularly on Broadway and off Broadway. I had a regular, you know, my Sash Bischoff (05:24.982) My big job starting in 2018 all the way up to the pandemic was I was the associate director of Dear Evan Hansen on Broadway and the national tour, which meant that I was overseeing the whole show. It was a huge job and it was an incredible honor to do that job. And then, you know, the pandemic happened and theater just disappeared. were, one day I was in rehearsal and I was putting in an actor for the show that night and we got a call and the industry shut down. And I was, you my whole career disappeared. during, you know, up until that time, I had, I wrote a first real but very bad novel in college. And then I, while I was pursuing directing, I wrote a second novel that took me forever to write because it was secondary to my directing. But I sent it around and got some interest, it ultimately ended up not being the first novel that I would publish, which is for the best, for sure. But it gave me enough confidence to think, oh, maybe I'm not terrible. Maybe there's a possibility that I could be a writer. And so then when theater went away, I thought, well, I have to turn this into a positive situation. I have to sort of give this a shot and see. Michelle Glogovac (06:27.578) Ha Michelle Glogovac (06:33.978) Mm-hmm. Michelle Glogovac (06:46.33) love that. And knowing that you're the director, I can feel that now coming through the book because you write about this movie being made and there's direction being given and having never been on a film set, you don't know what that's like as the reader myself. And I'm watching, watching, I'm reading it, but I felt like I was there watching it all happen and… Sash Bischoff (06:47.168) Yeah. Sash Bischoff (06:50.89) Yeah. Sash Bischoff (07:05.874) Yeah, I'm good. Michelle Glogovac (07:10.126) I'm like, and then they're in your face with the camera and that's interesting and they follow you and you go from room to room. so this obviously that was a big part of you that was in the book and that experience. Sash Bischoff (07:14.356) Yeah. Sash Bischoff (07:20.498) Mm-hmm, yeah. Yeah, I definitely, you know, having, I mean, I have a little experience in film and TV, but much more so in theater. So that was, you know, a lot of that was, you know, me researching and imagining, but I definitely have a very intimate knowledge of the dynamics between actors and directors and what it takes to sort of unpack a scene and then build it back together and understandings sort of. tension and action and conflict and know theatricality and stakes and pacing all of these things really helped me you know both in writing those scenes and in learning teaching myself how to write a suspense novel. Michelle Glogovac (08:05.253) And you did good. Sash Bischoff (08:06.578) No, thank you. Michelle Glogovac (08:09.882) I was telling you before we started, I want everyone to hear this too, is that I thought at a certain part that I knew what was going to happen. I was like, oh, I got this. I figured it out. I know what's happening to Lila Crane. I know what she did. I know what her whole purpose is. And then I turned the page and I went, oh no. Okay. Did not see that coming. Sash Bischoff (08:20.81) Yes. Sash Bischoff (08:30.095) Yeah. Music to my ears. Michelle Glogovac (08:35.694) Were there any parts of the book that you wrote that you were like, wait, what happened there? How did I come up with that? Because I've talked to authors who were like, I don't know what happened. It just came out that way. Sash Bischoff (08:45.736) Well, I wrote a really detailed outline. I definitely have turned into a writer that really depends on an outline. It is completely like, you know, my baby blanket that I hold onto for comfort when I get lost. So I had a good sense of where the story was going. However, there was one big twist and one character that factors into the plot in a very surprising way towards the end that was not in the original story. So that and that is completely thanks to my genius agents who were like, this needs another twist. To make it really original, this needs another twist. And so it was through their pushing that I got that cool other layer. Michelle Glogovac (09:41.178) I'm thinking, I'm guessing I know who you're talking about. Yeah. Yes. At the very end, you're like, oh, okay. Yes, I got you. Yeah. Yeah. The one question I did have was the cameras that were in the apartment. I'm like, they were recording, were they not? I don't know. We don't want to give away spoilers, but I'm going, something had to be recording something else like… Sash Bischoff (09:42.846) I think you probably know, yeah. Mm-hmm. Sash Bischoff (09:57.351) Mm-hmm. Sash Bischoff (10:08.266) I don't think in my head they weren't on. Yeah. Michelle Glogovac (10:10.754) Okay. I figured somebody was planning something along the way and I'm like, mm-hmm. Yeah, it was, but. Sash Bischoff (10:17.91) I love that though. I love when like people get into the nitty-gritty of like, but what about this? Michelle Glogovac (10:26.842) There was another part where I thought, you know what, he's just going to lose it and I think he's just going to jump. That was something else that I thought. Yes. I'm like, he's just going to… Because that would just be like, not for the best. I don't want to say that. But like in the book, we're not talking real life people. In the book, you're like, that would just kind of solve it. But no. Sash Bischoff (10:35.062) Mmm, good, good. Yeah, I like that. Sash Bischoff (10:45.108) Yeah. Yeah. Sash Bischoff (10:51.71) Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And I, yeah, yeah. Well, and in the previous scene, Lila kind of suggests that possibility that in the film that the character, you know, so anyway, that's, I'm getting too spoilery, but yes, I'm glad that you thought that. Michelle Glogovac (11:02.425) Yeah. Michelle Glogovac (11:06.574) But it is so good. You have to go read it and then you will understand and be like, yes, what they were talking about. I get it. And I also feel like you brought in the Me Too movement. And so I appreciate that, that you talked about it. You showed what that is like. What was that? Obviously it was intentional. What was behind your thought and your intention in including that part? Sash Bischoff (11:19.606) Mm-hmm. Sash Bischoff (11:29.909) Mm-hmm. Michelle Glogovac (11:36.703) of the book and of the film industry. Sash Bischoff (11:40.234) Yeah, I mean, I think the Me Too movement, there are a lot of books about the Me Too movement and a lot of revenge books about the Me Too movement. And so I was trying to do something a little bit new. And I also feel like this book is specifically set in the aftermath of the Me Too movement. I think one of the most important things to me in writing this book was to avoid telling a story that felt black and white. I really wanted everything and everyone in this world to live in the gray area because that feels most honest to my experience of life. And so all of these characters, nobody is an explicit hero, nobody's an explicit villain. Everyone is a limited and flawed human being. The title of the third section of my book is quote from Tender is the Night, which is, must all try to be good. And there are a number of reasons I chose that quote, but one of them is that all of the characters in the book are to varying degrees to the best of their ability trying to do the right thing. So in terms of the Me Too movement, it's a big question and I don't want to reveal too much about my book, but I think that our country's justice system is deeply flawed. And I don't know what adequate reparations look like for victims of sexual assault. I wonder if they even exist. But I know that if the system is broken because men, because usually it's men with sexual assault, continue to get away with these crimes over and over again. And they continue to be elevated to positions of power and influence and respect because of our priorities in our culture. But the sort of new idea that I try to bring up in my book is that this pervasive cultural misogyny is everywhere in our culture. It is impossible to avoid. And because we are living and breathing that air, sometimes a woman can also be guilty of condoning or even perpetuating the misogyny, perhaps to Sash Bischoff (14:04.042) to get ahead herself or to hold on to her tiniest position. And under the right circumstances, a woman could be guilty of committing the same atrocities or even worse as those that a man might commit. Michelle Glogovac (14:19.478) I completely agree. Yes. And I have a lot of feelings. Yes. Yeah, because it encompasses so much. It's not just sexual assault that it encompasses. I really feel that if we as women came together collectively and took a stand on quite literally everything, it would all be different. It would be completely different. But since there is Sash Bischoff (14:24.776) Yeah, it's a big, big subject, yeah. Sash Bischoff (14:31.714) huh. Sash Bischoff (14:43.83) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Michelle Glogovac (14:48.766) know, a portion who perpetuate it, who sit back and are okay with it, who turn a blind eye to it, it continues and we don't see change. Sash Bischoff (14:58.26) I think, yeah, there are very different generations of, one of the things that I try to portray in the book is three different generations of women and the different definitions of feminism and how it's sometimes misused and abused. There are a number of characters in this book that like to think themselves a feminist. And in my opinion, they may not be at all. So it's also digging into that question a bit more of what is true feminism? What does that mean? What does that look like? Michelle Glogovac (15:38.394) I love that. And I'm thinking about Layla's mom and like, what? She's just, she's a hot mess. Who thinks she's like some badass? Yeah. I'm like, I just see her like drinking her martini and you know, she's got her puffy eye things on and a long silk robe and she's like running the world. That's just how she is and who she is. Sash Bischoff (15:41.62) Yeah, exactly, But so fun, isn't she? I really had fun writing her. Yeah. Yeah. Yes, yes. Michelle Glogovac (16:08.442) And then we have to, I read on your website that somebody asked you the question, or it was like a book club question of who, which character would you like to in real life, like hang out with? And you said Maggie. And I was like, yeah, Maggie's like the sole person that you can't not like in the book. She's the one true good person. Sash Bischoff (16:20.128) Nothing. Sash Bischoff (16:25.564) Yeah, yeah, she is. Don't give too much away. But yes, yes, I agree. I love Maggie. Michelle Glogovac (16:34.938) Just, yeah, you're like, you just, I want to have her over for a cup of tea and be like, it's okay. Sash Bischoff (16:40.15) Yeah, she's a really good person and she is definitely more in line with what I think of when I think of feminism. Michelle Glogovac (16:49.484) Yes, yes. And then now that I'm thinking about Maggie and I'm thinking about the paintings, then I think about the twins in their yellow coats. And it was so good. Obviously, I read it. I'm like, let me pull out all of the little people. It's fresh in my mind since I just finished it a few days ago, so it's perfect. I don't have to pull back in the vault of going, wait, what? Sash Bischoff (16:56.497) Mm-hmm. Sash Bischoff (17:00.592) No. Yes, you did. Closely, clearly. Yeah. Yeah. Good. that must be hard. I feel like my memory is terrible. I would not be able to do your job. I would forget the book. Yeah. Yeah. Michelle Glogovac (17:19.418) Somehow I remember, so it's… we're good, yeah. Do you have more plans of writing more? Sash Bischoff (17:29.11) Mm-hmm. Yeah, I am was lucky enough to get a two book deal with Simon and Schuster. And so I yeah, yeah, I've already written the next book. It is that said it is a very messy draft. It means a lot of edits. So it'll it'll take some time, but I am I am so excited about it. I love it. So I'm deep in deep in that. Michelle Glogovac (17:35.009) Yay! Michelle Glogovac (17:51.962) And then is, so is this the new path for you or are you going back to directing? What is, what does current career look like, future career look like? Sash Bischoff (18:00.584) Yeah, I mean, right now I'm in the extremely lucky position to be writing full time as a career. I mean, that is so rare and I am just so thankful and I really, really love it. And I'm trying to take good advantage of it. But so so right now it's full time writing. I did get to record the audio book myself of Sweet Fury, which was my gosh, it was so fun, but also Michelle Glogovac (18:24.846) that fun? Sash Bischoff (18:29.75) one of the hardest things I've ever done in my life. I went and being like, I've acted, I got this. And it is not the same as acting at all. It is really, really intense and exhausting. But I loved it so much. And I am so happy that I did it and definitely want to do it for all of my books going forward. That felt like a really full circle moment, you know, because I hadn't acted in 15 years, really. And so now, so being able to tap into that again, get that satisfaction and doing that with my work felt really special. And then, you know, in terms of theater, I don't know, I've pressed pause on it for now, we'll see, but I have dreams one day of sort of braiding it all together, you know, if there are adaptations in the future, one day being able to, you know, write in direct, you know, that's all sort of the pieces of my life coming together. That's the pipe dream. Michelle Glogovac (19:26.706) I it. I see this being optioned. This is like a Netflix or Apple series. Like, it doesn't have to be just a film, one and done. You can continue on. I see it. I've got it in my head. Like, it can be done. It will be done. And how much fun is the audiobook? I loved recording mine and the best was when I did. The audio engineer was like, no, there… And mine's nonfiction. So it's not like there's acting or whatnot, but he's like, I need you be more Hollywood there. Sash Bischoff (19:31.666) thank you. God. Yeah. Sash Bischoff (19:38.326) Please put into the universe. you did it too. Sash Bischoff (19:51.082) Mm-hmm. Okay. Like, let me just put on my accent. Yeah, yeah, it's a really cool experience. Michelle Glogovac (20:01.176) Yeah, he's like, no, chew them out, do something, you know, get harsh, do this. I'm like, okay. But it was so much fun. Yeah. I'm like, give me more of those. But I podcast, so it's like the same thing. Sash Bischoff (20:12.79) Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So you're a pro. You get it. I was such a newbie. Michelle Glogovac (20:20.47) No, but it's so different when you're doing it for so many hours at a time and you're stuck in a booth and like that is it. Yeah. Sash Bischoff (20:24.522) Yeah. my gosh. It's a weird experience. Yeah. Yeah. I was like on full vocal rest when I wasn't recording because I was so exhausted and like my voice would go if I didn't, you know, I had all of my little tricks and my, you know, bone broth that I was sipping and my teas and I, I mean, I look like an insane person. Michelle Glogovac (20:49.626) I only had two days in the studio to get it all done. So I flew down to LA and I had apples with me and I had everything because I'm like, I don't have time to go to the store and tea and sprays and lozenges and everything. It's a hot mess and yet we're like, it was so fun. Totally glamorous with pillows and towels. Sash Bischoff (20:51.463) yeah. Sash Bischoff (21:01.883) Yep. It's glamorous. Yeah. Yeah, my friend recorded an audiobook when she was pregnant and she had to have a pillow over her belly because of the baby. So cute. It picks up everything. Michelle Glogovac (21:24.826) Because it picks up everything. don't think – yeah, there were a couple of times where my stomach growled and we're like, sorry. Yeah, I guess we need to cut and go back for my stomach. Sash Bischoff (21:30.806) Excuse me! Yeah, you become very aware of the body. Michelle Glogovac (21:39.29) Oh my goodness, that's so much fun. So, yes, yes, and you're like, oh, it makes weird noises that I didn't realize. How embarrassing. Stranger man that I don't know, but now who know it too intimately? Sash Bischoff (21:46.776) Yes. Yeah, really. So funny, it's so true. Michelle Glogovac (21:57.978) So now you're going on tour and where are you going and what are you doing? How long is this for? Sash Bischoff (22:05.398) Oh, it's so exciting. So tomorrow I have my big kickoff launch event in the city in Brooklyn at Greenlight Bookstore. And then on Friday I fly off and I start in the Bay Area and then I go to LA. Fingers crossed that they're okay. And then Santa Barbara, San Diego, Arizona, couple of trips to Chicago. We'll see from there. Michelle Glogovac (22:34.136) All the fun cities, my favorite cities. And then, so when do we hope the next book comes out? Now that you've had the first baby, when's the next one coming? Sash Bischoff (22:35.624) Yeah, yeah, I'm so excited. Sash Bischoff (22:41.622) Oh, I know, I know. Give my body some time. I need to learn to walk again. I don't know. mean, I have a due date into my editor next year. So maybe 27, 28, something like that, a few years. Yeah. Michelle Glogovac (22:48.225) Yes! Michelle Glogovac (23:02.83) So you've got some time. It's not that you have to pump one out every year, which is crazy, but. Sash Bischoff (23:06.88) Yeah, I'm very, very grateful for that. I think I need that time to make it good. You know, it wouldn't be as good if I rushed it. Michelle Glogovac (23:16.354) And are you sticking to suspenseful thriller stuff or are we going to see something different? Sash Bischoff (23:20.873) Yeah, yeah, it's a little less thriller, like strictly thrillery, I would say, at least at this stage. I think I'm moving more towards my idol, Donna Tartt, in terms of literary suspense. But what I can tell you, I don't have a slick elevator pitch yet for it, but it is set on an island off the Northeast coast of America. It's told over the course of multiple generations and it's in large part about the climate crisis and what you eventually learn over the course of the story is that it is a feminist adaptation of a Greek tragedy. Michelle Glogovac (24:03.95) I love it. Look at you. This is why you went to Princeton. You're a smart cookie. Sash Bischoff (24:05.065) Mm-hmm. Yeah, I don't know. I do some freedom things Michelle Glogovac (24:11.898) Well, I don't think they let just anyone come into Princeton. I'm just saying. I didn't apply, so I wouldn't know, but I would have probably been rejected. Sash Bischoff (24:15.494) I mean, I went through Princeton feeling like the dumbest person there. So I had total imposter syndrome. There are a lot of smart people at Princeton. Michelle Glogovac (24:27.578) You know what's funny is I had Lauren Ling Brown on recently as well. And so hearing about these food clubs, dinner clubs, the eating clubs, yes, I'm like, I had never heard about these and you have an element in your book too and the secret societies. like, Sash Bischoff (24:33.426) yeah! Sash Bischoff (24:48.052) Mm-hmm. Michelle Glogovac (24:50.734) Well, these are all coming out of the woodwork, feel, unless I've been living under a rock because, know, you can ask your husband because we went to school at the same school. So you see Santa Barbara didn't have eating clubs. Jack Johnson referenced our cafeteria on campus in a song, but that's as far as it went. He did. Yeah. Yeah. When you eat at the DLG, something like that. Sash Bischoff (24:52.477) Sash Bischoff (24:58.122) Yeah, yeah. Sash Bischoff (25:07.958) we did? Oh, that's cool. Sash Bischoff (25:13.396) my gosh, claim to fame. Yeah, eating cloves are definitely like a long held institution at Princeton, but they're, you know, a weird anomaly. Like they're super weird and they don't exist anywhere else, I don't believe. But the secret society in my book is definitely real. Michelle Glogovac (25:16.602) Yeah Michelle Glogovac (25:33.85) Mm-hmm. Some weird, yeah, it explains so much in our country, doesn't it? Sash Bischoff (25:40.438) Yes it does, yes, yes indeed. Michelle Glogovac (25:45.018) it's like a Pandora's box, think, just opening that and yeah, so many more thoughts on that one as well. Sash Bischoff (25:48.096) Bye for now. Sash Bischoff (25:52.95) I know it's so tough to talk about without giving up spoilers. Michelle Glogovac (25:57.922) Yeah, I don't want to give spoilers and I don't want to be all mean about our country, but... Sash Bischoff (26:02.646) Mm-hmm. I know. I know. I- I'm on your level. I get it. Michelle Glogovac (26:04.949) You get what I'm dropping down. Michelle Glogovac (26:10.658) my gosh, I like you. I feel like we could totally just hang out together and have a cocktail. And yes, it's only 930 in the morning, but I'm like, yeah, let's have a cocktail together. Sash Bischoff (26:14.822) I know, me too! Sash Bischoff (26:21.13) my gosh, are you kidding me? After like the past 24 hours of my life with the book and I'm like, give me a cocktail anytime. I'm ready. I be. Michelle Glogovac (26:28.216) love it. Sash Bischoff (26:32.608) Thank you. Michelle Glogovac (26:33.039) my gosh, you are such a delight. It's so much fun to have gotten to read your book. I loved it. And then to meet you and you're just friendly and sweet and adorable. And yeah, let's be friends in real life, okay? Sash Bischoff (26:42.56) Thank you. Yes, please. Thank you so much. This is so fun. Michelle Glogovac (26:49.732) Can you tell everyone where they can find you, follow you, and learn more about your book tour so they can go stalk you and, well, in a good way? Sash Bischoff (26:56.092) Of course, yes please. Good stocking only. Yes, I am Sash Bischoff and you can find me on Instagram, I'm very active at Sash.Bischoff and my website is SashBischoff.com and it has all of my information about the tour stops and links to get your seats. Michelle Glogovac (27:17.034) Awesome. Thank you so much and congratulations. Sash Bischoff (27:20.075) Thank you, Michelle. So good to talk to you.